Essex Outfielder : The Unofficial Essex CCC Forum

Cricket => England Test => Topic started by: Valentines Park on July 21, 2014, 05:03:32 PM

Title: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on July 21, 2014, 05:03:32 PM
Do you think Cook's refusal to give up the England captaincy is partly Essex's fault?

After all if Larry & Fozzy can get away with years of terrible leadership why shouldn't he?

Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: nat on July 21, 2014, 08:13:53 PM
Definitely not captaincy material, you need to a hard b*****d particularly to deal with delinquents like Broad and Anderson.

However, you can only smile when you hear and watch Botham criticise his captaincy. The only past England captain who can make Cook look good.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on July 21, 2014, 08:22:04 PM
Definitely not captaincy material, you need to a hard b*****d particularly to deal with delinquents like Broad and Anderson.

However, you can only smile when you hear and watch Botham criticise his captaincy. The only past England captain who can make Cook look good.

I suggest you read up Boycott's (very) brief tenure! It makes Botham look like a master tactician.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on July 21, 2014, 08:29:00 PM
The only past England captain who can make Cook look good.

Boycott has admitted he was a bad captain who should have stuck solely to batting.

Maybe Cook should take heed.

Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on July 22, 2014, 10:16:03 PM
The only past England captain who can make Cook look good.

Aren't you forgetting Chris Cowdray?
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on July 23, 2014, 07:13:46 AM
For all Cook's tactical deficiencies he has also been let down by his players, many of whom just haven't performed; Balance, Root & Moeen by & large have but Prior has been awful (how on earth has he been allowed to play with what appears to be an obvious long standing injury?), Bell has had a bad time at the same time as Ally. In seam bowling someone needs to tell/remind Anderson & Broad where to bowl ie not consistent bowl too short, Broad should be reminded that he is NOT an out & out fast bowler, concentrate on what he is best at.
On Talksport the other day Piers Morgan that cricket expert & The Ego's mouthpiece was spouting on about getting rid of Cook now. His solution? Bring back The Ego!! That shows you how much he knows & understands!!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on July 23, 2014, 11:17:40 AM
Aren't you forgetting Chris Cowdray?

Chris Cowdery probably forgets about Chris Cowdery.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on July 23, 2014, 01:29:27 PM
Do you think its Cook making these poor judgement calls or simply being steamrollered by Broad/Andersen/Prior? The good ship England seems to be quite watertight, but I would expect a few more tabloid 'leaks' by now.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on July 24, 2014, 09:27:22 AM
Do you think its Cook making these poor judgement calls or simply being steamrollered by Broad/Andersen/Prior? The good ship England seems to be quite watertight, but I would expect a few more tabloid 'leaks' by now.

I neither know or profess to know anything about cricket management, but common logic would tend to suggest that to dismiss a successful manager and reappoint a former manager who has already proven to be a failure was always destined for disaster.

At least with ECCC, over the past 20 yrs. they've only replaced one failure with another.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on July 24, 2014, 10:01:55 AM
I neither know or profess to know anything about cricket management, but common logic would tend to suggest that to dismiss a successful manager and reappoint a former manager who has already proven to be a failure was always destined for disaster.

At least with ECCC, over the past 20 yrs. they've only replaced one failure with another.

Firstly, given that we were falling apart before the 5-0 I think 'once successful' is a better term for AF. Secondly, has he really been dismissed, or simply moved upstairs - in itself a recipe for disaster for the replacement (think Moyes/Fergie).

Fact is, no one else wanted the England gig and we don't know to what extent it was KP & the other players who were culpable for the poor performances under Moores. I suspect that few of the big beasts of the team over the past 5 years will be playing international cricket come the start of the next Ashes series.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on July 24, 2014, 10:42:48 AM
Andy Flower is coaching the Lions so I'd say he's been moved sideways if anything.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on July 24, 2014, 11:25:00 AM
Andy Flower is coaching the Lions so I'd say he's been moved sideways if anything.
Indeed? This expalins why Boppys in the Lions squad.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: nat on July 24, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
Andy Flower is living proof that great players don't always make great coaches/managers.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on July 24, 2014, 12:02:19 PM
Whereas Grayson is proof that average players make even worse coaches.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on July 24, 2014, 12:26:27 PM
Andy Flower is living proof that great players don't always make great coaches/managers.

I don't know..he did ok didn't he? 
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on July 24, 2014, 12:54:06 PM
I don't know..he did ok didn't he?

Indeed.

Having a sell by date is a bit different to being shoddy goods from the off.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on July 24, 2014, 01:05:54 PM
Perhaps this is missing an important point: it is often the relationships between key individuals that make or break a team.

Look at Duncan Fletcher: lauded for beating the Aussies in 2005 and lambasted for losing in 2006/7. The difference? With Nasser Hussain DF turned a failing team around, with a (apparently drunken) Flintoff, the wheels - or whatever Pedalos run on - came off.

Flower's turnaround of the post KP/Moores debacle shouldn't be forgotten. Clearly he and Strauss worked well together, until the strain of KP got too much for the latter.

This doesn't necessarily mean that Cooky was the sole cause - just that at the time he took over the team was perhaps relieved/shocked at what had happened and facing weakened sides, which changed as the team began to face improving sides (e.g. Lehman era Aussies). I always worried whether Chef had the strength of personality that could keep the side together. Neither he nor Flower are demonstrative characters, with the similarly reticent Gooch on board there was a clear need for more extroverted personalities to lift team spirits - hence the loss of Swann seems to have had a profound effect.

The situated nature of coaching/managing/captaincy tends to be forgotten.  It would be an interesting experiment to put a Lehman-like personality in. I take the point that a lot of improvements were introduced under Mickey Arthur or were down to individual mindsets (e.g. Mitch Johnson finally getting his mind & body together). Indeed, this reinforces the situatedness of managing/coaching.

Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on July 24, 2014, 01:07:44 PM
I don't know..he did ok didn't he?

Indeed.

Having a sell by date is a bit different to being shoddy goods from the off.

Indeed he did, my neighbour asked me the other day,'what's happened with the cricket,' adding, 'we were on top of the world a couple of yrs. ago.'
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: bwildered on July 27, 2014, 04:51:08 PM
Captain Cook, became England's third highest test run scorer overtaking KP and David Gower during his innings of 95.
Essex now have two of the top three.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on July 27, 2014, 08:50:48 PM
Great to see Ally getting some form back today, I was watching Sky willing him to get his ton but not to be & not a great shot to get out to, much better overall & more like his real self.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on July 28, 2014, 07:15:26 AM
Perhaps this is missing an important point: it is often the relationships between key individuals that make or break a team.

Look at Duncan Fletcher: lauded for beating the Aussies in 2005 and lambasted for losing in 2006/7. The difference? With Nasser Hussain DF turned a failing team around, with a (apparently drunken) Flintoff, the wheels - or whatever Pedalos run on - came off.

Flower's turnaround of the post KP/Moores debacle shouldn't be forgotten. Clearly he and Strauss worked well together, until the strain of KP got too much for the latter.

This doesn't necessarily mean that Cooky was the sole cause - just that at the time he took over the team was perhaps relieved/shocked at what had happened and facing weakened sides, which changed as the team began to face improving sides (e.g. Lehman era Aussies). I always worried whether Chef had the strength of personality that could keep the side together. Neither he nor Flower are demonstrative characters, with the similarly reticent Gooch on board there was a clear need for more extroverted personalities to lift team spirits - hence the loss of Swann seems to have had a profound effect.

The situated nature of coaching/managing/captaincy tends to be forgotten.  It would be an interesting experiment to put a Lehman-like personality in. I take the point that a lot of improvements were introduced under Mickey Arthur or were down to individual mindsets (e.g. Mitch Johnson finally getting his mind & body together). Indeed, this reinforces the situatedness of managing/coaching.

excellent post mate.

The bigger issue is that we don't have any of those type of coaches.  English coaching obsessed with fitness and statistics.  They've forgotten that a huge amount of coaching is in the head stuff and getting the best out of players, not just making them robots with uber fitness.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on July 28, 2014, 11:46:36 AM
not just making them robots with uber fitness.

Case in point being bowlers made to warm up with medicine balls.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on July 28, 2014, 02:55:34 PM
not just making them robots with uber fitness.

Case in point being bowlers made to warm up with medicine balls.

Ah-ha. Is that why Gooch always liked seamers who could bowl heavy balls?
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on July 30, 2014, 06:48:41 AM
oh...thank god for that.  for the last 15 years I was under the impression that Gooch had said he liked Seamers "with" heavy balls. 

I've so avoided making any kind of eye contact with him since...


 ;D
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on July 30, 2014, 12:14:06 PM
oh...thank god for that.  for the last 15 years I was under the impression that Gooch had said he liked Seamers "with" heavy balls. 

I've so avoided making any kind of eye contact with him since...
 ;D

I set 'em up, you put 'em away.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on July 31, 2014, 04:40:31 PM
I thought it was a disappointing display, particularly on a wicket that was more suited to the indians than Lords. To drop Cook and allow him to gain some kind of form was unfortunate, but to lose 7 wickets to part time bowlers in the 2nd. innings, not to mention that unnecessary run out was unforgivable.

The only batsman deserving any credit was Rahone and the bowling looked fairly innocuous without Sharma, lets hope he's fit for the next game.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on July 31, 2014, 04:43:44 PM
I thought it was a disappointing display, particularly on a wicket that was more suited to the indians than Lords. To drop Cook and allow him to gain some kind of form was unfortunate, but to lose 7 wickets to part time bowlers in the 2nd. innings, not to mention that unnecessary run out was unforgivable.

The only batsman deserving any credit was Rahone and the bowling looked fairly innocuous without Sharma, lets hope he's fit for the next game.

He's not, apparently. Who's side are you on???
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on August 01, 2014, 08:57:25 AM
Cook is of course a brilliant captain, and this England team are world-beaters. As I've said all along.  ;) :-[
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 01, 2014, 09:54:07 AM
Cook is of course a brilliant captain, and this England team are world-beaters. As I've said all along.  ;) :-[

Indeed, a day is a long time in international cricket.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Postman on August 04, 2014, 07:20:35 PM
Now that the dates for the next West Indies series have been announced it looks as though we won't see Cook at all next season for Essex. His next appearance could well be in April 2016 (or March, in Dubai??)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on August 06, 2014, 07:24:26 AM
Well deserved benefit eh... :o
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on August 06, 2014, 12:00:10 PM
Now that the dates for the next West Indies series have been announced it looks as though we won't see Cook at all next season for Essex. His next appearance could well be in April 2016 (or March, in Dubai??)

Ha, ha very good!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on August 08, 2014, 03:52:17 PM
His next appearance could well be in April 2016

Diatribe will be pleased.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 11, 2014, 12:57:49 PM


Diatribe will be pleased.

Alas dear Yorick, I am not at all pleased with the way the series has deteriorated into a one sided affair. When I was young, I was a tad more patriotic and always wanted to see England win, including against inferior opposition, but with the passing of time, I've come to appreciate the more even handed games regardless of which side wins, just so long as its a good and interesting match.

The series against Ceylon was fairly evenly matched as were the first couple of games against the indians, but since then, the aforementioned appeared to have given up the ghost with the results being a foregone conclusion. For a nation renown for its batting in former times to be twice bowled out by a part time slow bowler is surely not acceptable by international standards. Maybe they'll put up a better display at the Oval, because England's good performances over the past couple of test cannot be used as a gauge for future displays against the better class test playing sides, ie, Australia, Suid Afrika, or for that matter Pakistan.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on August 11, 2014, 03:33:13 PM
India's batting at the weekend reverted to how they used to bat over here pre Gavaskar who ,when he played, showed the Indians that if you played with grit & toughed it out you could achieve a lot - which he certainly did!
All credit to England for winning & taking a 2-1 lead to the Oval, well done to Moeen Ali, a so called bit part bowler, who has turned into a match winner.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on August 11, 2014, 04:05:06 PM
India's batting at the weekend reverted to how they used to bat over here pre Gavaskar who ,when he played, showed the Indians that if you played with grit & toughed it out you could achieve a lot - which he certainly did!
All credit to England for winning & taking a 2-1 lead to the Oval, well done to Moeen Ali, a so called bit part bowler, who has turned into a match winner.
Sunny G was not the only quality batter to emerge in the 1970s, the likes of Vensakar (as well as Kapil Dev) were very handy even on English greentops. These guys often played in the CC or leagues in longer formats of the game as well - not just 20/20 on dead wickets.

However, this doesn't explain why they get out to a (part time) spinner. Either they've been paid to fail, they've fallen out with each other big time (or with Big Duncan) or Moeen Ali has learnt a thing or two from Ajmal (hopefully not how to chuck out batters).

Like Diatribe, I'm not doing cartwheels because this is an Indian team that is restarting (like England). Conversely, that doesn't mean I want England to struggle or lose.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 12, 2014, 10:53:10 AM
I note that he with a zany syrup, perhaps less affectionately known as Michael Vaughn has completely changed his opinion regarding Cook's captaincy. In a space of a couple of wks. he has gone from demanding his resignation to stating that he is the right man to lead English cricket's renaissance. All on the back of a couple of wins against  a dispirited and lacklustre Indian team. I wonder where his allegiances will lay halfway through the 2015 test series against the Australian tourists.

If ever there was a more classical example of a 'man of straw' than Michael Vaughn, I've yet to hear of it, but what could one reasonably expect of a person who's favourite TV programme is the X Factor.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on August 12, 2014, 12:35:27 PM
It's axiomatic that the media needs feeding with 'opinions' on a daily/hourly basis. I would suggest that the rise of the 'ex-pro journalist' also reflects the need for 'celebrities' to make these endless 'opinions'.  Not to say that cricketers never ventured into the media (indeed Bailey captained ECCC whilst typing copy for the papers) but the loss of the professional journalist from printed and verbal media has seen a decline in the level of informed comment.  TMS has followed S*Y in this downward spiral. Ex-pros are prodded into reacting to the last match, rather than looking long-term.

The problem with Vaughan is not so much that he laid into Cook, but as Diatribe says, two good performances against a team that now seems to be homesick doesn't turn AC into Mike Brearley.

Ironically, the latter was probably the best qualified ex-professional to make a living from the media - but restricted himself to occasional pieces, perhaps realising how he'd be pushed into desperate attempts at 'cheap copy'. His analysis of KP is a brilliant deconstruction of personality, but not a hatchet-job. 

Possibly Ed Smith is one who has avoided the now cliched 'ex-pro media star' syndrome.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on August 12, 2014, 01:57:09 PM
It's axiomatic that the media needs feeding with 'opinions' on a daily/hourly basis. I would suggest that the rise of the 'ex-pro journalist' also reflects the need for 'celebrities' to make these endless 'opinions'.  Not to say that cricketers never ventured into the media (indeed Bailey captained ECCC whilst typing copy for the papers) but the loss of the professional journalist from printed and verbal media has seen a decline in the level of informed comment.  TMS has followed S*Y in this downward spiral. Ex-pros are prodded into reacting to the last match, rather than looking long-term.

The problem with Vaughan is not so much that he laid into Cook, but as Diatribe says, two good performances against a team that now seems to be homesick doesn't turn AC into Mike Brearley.

Ironically, the latter was probably the best qualified ex-professional to make a living from the media - but restricted himself to occasional pieces, perhaps realising how he'd be pushed into desperate attempts at 'cheap copy'. His analysis of KP is a brilliant deconstruction of personality, but not a hatchet-job. 

Possibly Ed Smith is one who has avoided the now cliched 'ex-pro media star' syndrome.

This is all correct of course, but then again, you could say that the Aussie rennaissance started against an England team that had started to fall apart.  We had KP, clearly not in form, neither was the Skipper, our front line spinner was basically a total crock and packed up after three tests, and our number 3 bat went home with a serious bout of depression/mental illness and still hasn't recovered.
The moral of the story being  "you can only play against what's in front of you".  If this series gives us a chance to regain confidence, form and that winning feeling, then it's a great series IMHO.

Lastly, I've just been given a freebie at the Oval on Friday, so very happy for the weather forecast to be good and England to continue to perform.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 13, 2014, 10:46:30 AM



Lastly, I've just been given a freebie at the Oval ,

I trust she was better value than that marquee you hired out for the Lancs. match last season, Blocky. ;D
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on August 13, 2014, 02:32:44 PM
well..given we paid 300 quid for the box, plus drinks last year, then the free seat on Friday is better value without a ball being bowled... ;)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 15, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Just a thought, but despite losing the toss, India could still have bowled first in the current Oval Test Match had they chosen to forego their first innings, which at the moment would appear not to have made much difference to the state of play.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on August 15, 2014, 09:06:25 PM
MS Dhoni must be envious of Essex.

Whilst our batting might start with the wicketkeeper India's seemingly starts & ends with the guy behind the stumps.   
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on August 15, 2014, 09:44:44 PM
MS Dhoni must be envious of Essex.

Whilst our batting might start with the wicketkeeper India's seemingly starts & ends with the guy behind the stumps.   
Very amusing!!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 16, 2014, 09:29:42 AM


Whilst our batting might start with the wicketkeeper India's seemingly starts & ends with the guy behind the stumps.   

Indeed, they may even require his bowling today, although I'm unsure as to whether he keeps wicket to his own bowling, particulary when pushing through the quicker delivery.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: neil on August 17, 2014, 09:19:46 AM
I was there on Friday and have never known such a lack of atmosphere at a test match. We bowled well, they batted badly but there was a sense of detachment from the proceedings.

Such a shame; the buzz is one of the things that makes live sport
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 17, 2014, 11:12:15 AM
I was there on Friday and have never known such a lack of atmosphere at a test match. We bowled well, they batted badly but there was a sense of detachment from the proceedings.

Such a shame; the buzz is one of the things that makes live sport

Quite so, inbetween listeng to the Esses/Glamorgan game, I've been watching the Ceylon/Pakistan test match as opposed to the predictable and mundane proceedings at the Oval.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 18, 2014, 10:15:38 AM
I'm afraid that by the end of the series, India didn't even look like a nation worthy of test match status.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on August 18, 2014, 11:25:32 AM
I was there on Friday and have never known such a lack of atmosphere at a test match. We bowled well, they batted badly but there was a sense of detachment from the proceedings.

Such a shame; the buzz is one of the things that makes live sport

i was there as well.  I'd agree, but think that may have been more to do with the number of "Indian" supporters in the crowd.  When Dhoni started knocking it around they got quite animated.  although I think I broke a PB for beers consumed during a days play being in Block 7 with the patio bar helped no end!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: neil on August 18, 2014, 01:26:07 PM
There weren't any Indian supporters in our part of the ground so that may be part of it. Plenty of guys selling Indian beer though

I have to sit on my hands here. If I don't there may be a rant about the ECB  saying no-one can take alcohol in because they don't want people to get drunk. And then the first thing I see when I walk into the Oval is a beer seller. Just be honest and say you are making money....
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: dtrave on August 18, 2014, 02:29:08 PM
I went yesterday and have to agree with Diatribe here.. The towel well and truly thrown in not yesterday but Friday and before that.. It made for a bit of a hollow victory in the end. Shame, as I was looking forward to seeing the Indian batters perform. Saying that though, it was a joy to watch Anderson and Broad get stuck in with the new ball.Also good to see Jordan feast himself on the buffet of available wickets as well. A good prospect for the future.

Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on August 18, 2014, 03:47:03 PM
Jordan's figures around five pm on Friday were something like 7 -5-7-3  miserly and wonderful from an English pov.

Woakes still doesn't do it for me though and I would love to have seen Finn have a go at these rabbits!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Perov on August 18, 2014, 03:54:48 PM
I like Finn, if he is back on form, but Stokes is also a useful bowler, and if he sorts himself out could still have an England future.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on August 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
The big plus for me back around the 2010/11 Ashes success was that we had genuine competition for places (i.e. not 'who's least worst at the moment') in the seam bowling department at least.

Without Anderson (and Broad I hate to say) I'm not sure we'll do much good despite the likes of Jordan settling in against the Indian rabbits. Whether a long stretch of ODIs is going to help us prepare for the run in to the 2015 Ashes is doubtful as well...
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on August 19, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
Jordan & Woakes are ok for 1 dayers but I don't think either are Test class yet & if Anderson &/or Broad are missing we will have problems getting 20 wickets unless the rejuvenated Finn can do the business along with Stokes.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on August 20, 2014, 09:20:37 AM
The big plus for me back around the 2010/11 Ashes success was that we had genuine competition for places (i.e. not 'who's least worst at the moment') in the seam bowling department at least.

Without Anderson (and Broad I hate to say) I'm not sure we'll do much good despite the likes of Jordan settling in against the Indian rabbits. Whether a long stretch of ODIs is going to help us prepare for the run in to the 2015 Ashes is doubtful as well...

The core of the England team will be completely knackered by the end of the Ashes series. The World Cup is in Feb/Mar preceded by a warm-up tournament in Australia in Jan. A brief break before playing 5 Tests (WI & NZ) in Apr/May/ June, before the 5 Ashes Tests in 7 weeks in Jul/Aug. I suspect that we will only "rotate" players if things are not going well, just as Australia did last summer and didn't during the winter series.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: DT on August 20, 2014, 09:33:52 AM
Jordan & Woakes are ok for 1 dayers but I don't think either are Test class yet & if Anderson &/or Broad are missing we will have problems getting 20 wickets unless the rejuvenated Finn can do the business along with Stokes.


Jordan has shown enough in the two home series to suggest he's going to have a good test future - 10 wkts @ 22 vs India a good return.  Woakes to his credit bowled really well at The Oval but still has more work to do.  Finn should be back soon hopefully - was messed about in the past year with his action, etc.  Stokes I'm not sure with the ball and Plunkett don't forget impressed enough.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on August 20, 2014, 10:13:08 AM
The core of the England team will be completely knackered by the end of the Ashes series...I suspect that we will only "rotate" players if things are not going well, just as Australia did last summer and didn't during the winter series.

I don't see the logic in not rotating the seamers at least. Certainly, I agree that they will be knackered, which is why a rotation policy may have to come into force de facto if players aren't fit.
I'd like to know why we seem to get a pack of seamers together periodically (e.g. 2005; 2010/11) then they fall away so quickly. Too much cricket? Too much 'coaching'?
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on August 20, 2014, 05:00:32 PM
The core of the England team will be completely knackered by the end of the Ashes series...I suspect that we will only "rotate" players if things are not going well, just as Australia did last summer and didn't during the winter series.

I don't see the logic in not rotating the seamers at least. Certainly, I agree that they will be knackered, which is why a rotation policy may have to come into force de facto if players aren't fit.
I'd like to know why we seem to get a pack of seamers together periodically (e.g. 2005; 2010/11) then they fall away so quickly. Too much cricket? Too much 'coaching'?

I agree, but before the Sri Lanka or India series, one of the selectors said that they expected to rotate the seam bowlers. In practice this meant flogging Anderson & Broad and trying out various combinations of the other seamers.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on August 30, 2014, 08:57:23 PM
With the 1 day series finishing next week will the England players & more pertinently Ally be allowed to play for their Counties for the remaining 2/3 games of the season?
I think I know the answer but it would be a nice gesture by Moores , I 'm not holding my breath!!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: DT on August 30, 2014, 10:35:48 PM
Cook should be playing for Essex now and not England quite frankly!!!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Slogger on August 31, 2014, 07:15:34 AM
Some of the fast bowlers may need a rest but no reason why most of them should play imo. I would be amazed if thye did play
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on August 31, 2014, 08:01:42 AM
With the 1 day series finishing next week will the England players & more pertinently Ally be allowed to play for their Counties for the remaining 2/3 games of the season?
I think I know the answer but it would be a nice gesture by Moores , I 'm not holding my breath!!

I was at Trent  Bridge for yesterday's ODI. Cook may have been top scorer for England but he made a horribly scratchy start. Imho, it could only do him good to have a knock or two against some 2nd div attacks and perhaps help him to remember what it is like to have a long innings. It may not help England win the world cup but I think that's a lost cause anyway.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: tonk on August 31, 2014, 09:14:33 AM
Too many living on past reputations-it's going to be a long winter for England watchers.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on August 31, 2014, 10:14:52 AM
ENGLAND SELECTORS  ENLIST AID FROM THE MONTANA WILDERNESS TO DEPRIVE COOK OF CAPTAINCY.


(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk141/Indigoia/thjpStallions.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/Indigoia/media/thjpStallions.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on August 31, 2014, 10:45:13 AM
ENGLAND SELECTORS  ENLIST AID FROM THE MONTANA WILDERNESS TO DEPRIVE COOK OF CAPTAINCY.


(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk141/Indigoia/thjpStallions.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/Indigoia/media/thjpStallions.jpg.html)

Very good, sir! But only the ODI team, please.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: tonk on September 06, 2014, 09:08:26 AM
Maybe a sign of change in that Cook says he has not been told he will continue as 50 over captain.All the Sky pundits bar Strauss would not have him the team either so I wonder what they know?
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Perov on September 06, 2014, 03:51:01 PM
Not alot, they all go for Morgan as captain, and he is lucky to still be in the side.
He didn't win much skippering Middlesex in one day games, and I think he is over rated.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: JasonP on September 06, 2014, 04:12:25 PM
He's the only one being completely rested and there's no Test matches until March/April I think so it looks like he is staying on as ODI captain.

http://www.ecb.co.uk/news/articles/england-player-availability-rest-season

Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on September 06, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
Not alot, they all go for Morgan as captain, and he is lucky to still be in the side.
He didn't win much skippering Middlesex in one day games, and I think he is over rated.

Couldn't agree more. Over the last two series he's been England's weakest batsman. The much maligned Cook has scored more runs at a faster rate.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: afinetickletoleg on September 06, 2014, 05:34:19 PM
Not alot, they all go for Morgan as captain, and he is lucky to still be in the side.
He didn't win much skippering Middlesex in one day games, and I think he is over rated.

Couldn't agree more. Over the last two series he's been England's weakest batsman. The much maligned Cook has scored more runs at a faster rate.

But the media claim that he is just out of form!!

It just goes to show that if the media are on your side you are laughing but if not they will stick the boot in until they get what they want.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on September 07, 2014, 08:10:03 AM
Fact is the media want simple stories. Cook isn't a good tactician, we all know this, and has had a sustained run of poor form not helped by the KP affair. Consequently the narrative is all doom and gloom.

Morgan, on the other hand, has been overshadowed by all this (which has helped him) and as there is no other real captaincy contender even with an unfit Broad the media is less likely to lay into Morgan - unless he gets the captaincy back off of Cook: then it's open season...
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 07, 2014, 11:38:46 AM
He's the only one being completely rested and there's no Test matches until March/April I think so it looks like he is staying on as ODI captain.

http://www.ecb.co.uk/news/articles/england-player-availability-rest-season

All of which makes ECCC retaining him on their books ever more bewildering. Cook has to be the club's worst ever return in their history from an international player.

My prediction is that after next season's Ashes series, Cook's international career will be over. All the top quality test bowlers have worked out his weakness and he'll be lucky to average above 25 from here on in.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: JasonP on September 07, 2014, 11:52:24 AM
He's the only one being completely rested and there's no Test matches until March/April I think so it looks like he is staying on as ODI captain.

http://www.ecb.co.uk/news/articles/england-player-availability-rest-season

All of which makes ECCC retaining him on their books ever more bewildering. Cook has to be the club's worst ever return in their history from an international player.


My prediction is that after next season's Ashes series, Cook's international career will be over. All the top quality test bowlers have worked out his weakness and he'll be lucky to average above 25 from here on in.

His wages are all paid by the ecb.  Essex plan for the season as if he wont play for them and any games he plays is a bonus.  He played 3 Championship games this season and scored hundreds in 2 of them, one of which was a match winning one.  Basically you get a world class player for a handful of games for free.  Why wouldnt you want him?
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 07, 2014, 12:08:15 PM
  He played 3 Championship games this season and scored hundreds in 2 of them, one of which was a match winning one.  Basically you get a world class player for a handful of games for free.  Why wouldnt you want him?

I get your drift, Jason, that's with the proviso of course that he doesn't receive any stipend from ECCC, although he's certainly held his hands out to the members with his 2014 benefit donation fund.

You're probably correct in your assumption that he will captain the 2015 World Cup squad, who incidentally have less chance of winning than the 2014 England World Cup football squad. He probably threatened to storm off with his public schoolboy petulance whilst taking the bat, ball and stumps with him if deprived of the captaincy.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: afinetickletoleg on September 07, 2014, 12:59:32 PM
Fact is the media want simple stories. Cook isn't a good tactician, we all know this, and has had a sustained run of poor form not helped by the KP affair. Consequently the narrative is all doom and gloom.

Morgan, on the other hand, has been overshadowed by all this (which has helped him) and as there is no other real captaincy contender even with an unfit Broad the media is less likely to lay into Morgan - unless he gets the captaincy back off of Cook: then it's open season...

On the other hand Morgan is obviously a master tactician looking at Middlesex's one day record this season.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: bwildered on September 07, 2014, 01:04:39 PM
England have made Captain Cook unavailable for Essex last two Championship matches of the  season.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: pablo on September 07, 2014, 03:30:57 PM
Unbelievable decision which I presume Cook supported if not instigated. For somebody whose form has deserted him for 18 months at least, one would have thought that some game time would have been exactly what he needed. Presumably now he won't pick up a bat in anger until he reaches Sri Lanka. Ridiculous ! Again the integrity of our domestic cricket is completely undermined as all the other England players  have been allowed to play the season. Surely either no ECB players play or they all do.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 07, 2014, 03:45:40 PM
Unbelievable decision which I presume Cook supported if not instigated. For somebody whose form has deserted him for 18 months at least, one would have thought that some game time would have been exactly what he needed.

Maybe he didn't want his batting deterioration exposed to diluted 2nd. div. bowling attacks, thereby ensuring his continued stay in the England side until at least the end of the 2015 Ashes series when his career will undoubtably end, particularly with the deployment of the Review System.

Despite his freak couple of successful innings for ECCC at the beginning of the season, I don't think the club will noticeably miss his services. I personally would rather see Browne in the opening spot against Kent than Alastair Cook. As far as ECCC is concerned, Cook has been the epitomy of a nonentity for them.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on September 07, 2014, 03:48:38 PM
Morgan, on the other hand, has been overshadowed by all this (which has helped him) and as there is no other real captaincy contender even with an unfit Broad the media is less likely to lay into Morgan - unless he gets the captaincy back off of Cook: then it's open season...

On the other hand Morgan is obviously a master tactician looking at Middlesex's one day record this season.

Don't disagree with your sentiments - I'm explaining not justifying the media's position...
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on September 07, 2014, 05:43:55 PM
England have made Captain Cook unavailable for Essex last two Championship matches of the  season.

Cook was "rested" for the end of the county season last year, too, to enable him to prepare himself properly for the Ashes tour. That worked out well.

Meanwhile Morgan turns out to be a brilliant T20 batsman and captain after all.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: nat on September 07, 2014, 06:36:56 PM
  He played 3 Championship games this season and scored hundreds in 2 of them, one of which was a match winning one.  Basically you get a world class player for a handful of games for free.  Why wouldnt you want him?

I get your drift, Jason, that's with the proviso of course that he doesn't receive any stipend from ECCC, although he's certainly held his hands out to the members with his 2014 benefit donation fund.

You're probably correct in your assumption that he will captain the 2015 World Cup squad, who incidentally have less chance of winning than the 2014 England World Cup football squad. He probably threatened to storm off with his public schoolboy petulance whilst taking the bat, ball and stumps with him if deprived of the captaincy.

I have little time for public school types but you are off the mark on this one ... as usual.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Slogger on September 07, 2014, 08:11:18 PM
I guess with nothing to play for it doesn, t make any real difference but I do think supporters of county cricket should get the chance to see the England squad when the international season has ended.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on September 07, 2014, 10:14:56 PM
Unbelievable decision which I presume Cook supported if not instigated. For somebody whose form has deserted him for 18 months at least, one would have thought that some game time would have been exactly what he needed.
Maybe he didn't want his batting deterioration exposed to diluted 2nd. div. bowling attacks, thereby ensuring his continued stay in the England side until at least the end of the 2015 Ashes series when his career will undoubtably end, particularly with the deployment of the Review System.

Despite his freak couple of successful innings for ECCC at the beginning of the season, I don't think the club will noticeably miss his services. I personally would rather see Browne in the opening spot against Kent than Alastair Cook. As far as ECCC is concerned, Cook has been the epitomy of a nonentity for them.

A cheap shot, to suggest Cook is scared of 2nd division bowlers. He showed what he can do at this level at the start of the season. Why do consider them to be "freaks"?  Can't you accept them at face value?

I agree that he benefited from some umpiring decisions but he also suffered from some bad ones...these are part of cricket.

You just have to accept that we will never see much of Cook, although on this occasion I find the decision to rest him nothing short of capricious. As Jason has pointed out, his contract is with the ECB. We may not like it but it is probably the best arrangement for English cricket (whose team are far more likely to win an international competition than their footballing equivalents, where the clubs control everything)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on September 07, 2014, 10:32:21 PM
I guess with nothing to play for it doesn, t make any real difference

Nothing to play for?

2 more wins & we're up.

Larry said so.
 
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: tonk on September 08, 2014, 09:54:53 AM
Bit of a let down really I'm sure if he had wanted to he would have been allowed to play.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: afinetickletoleg on September 08, 2014, 11:18:18 AM

Meanwhile Morgan turns out to be a brilliant T20 batsman and captain after all.

Based on one game?

I don't get the fuss really about naming a captain in advance for T20.
It is a game based on slogging for 20 overs and has little to do with tactics. Just pick the best 11 and name a captain from there.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on September 08, 2014, 11:36:55 AM
It is a game based on slogging for 20 overs and has little to do with tactics.

If no tactics are required Essex should be winning it every year ;)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 08, 2014, 12:56:24 PM
Why do consider them to be "freaks"?  Can't you accept them at face value?




'Freak' was probably inappropriate phraseology, uncharacteristic might be a better word if taken in context with his contributions for ECCC over the past couple of seasons and beyond.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on September 08, 2014, 01:02:09 PM

Meanwhile Morgan turns out to be a brilliant T20 batsman and captain after all.

Based on one game?...

I suppose I should've added the old "irony" emoticon. Sometimes one thinks it's so obvious that it shouldn't be necessary, but...
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on September 08, 2014, 04:59:51 PM
Unbelievable decision which I presume Cook supported if not instigated. For somebody whose form has deserted him for 18 months at least, one would have thought that some game time would have been exactly what he needed.
Maybe he didn't want his batting deterioration exposed to diluted 2nd. div. bowling attacks, thereby ensuring his continued stay in the England side until at least the end of the 2015 Ashes series when his career will undoubtably end, particularly with the deployment of the Review System.

Despite his freak couple of successful innings for ECCC at the beginning of the season, I don't think the club will noticeably miss his services. I personally would rather see Browne in the opening spot against Kent than Alastair Cook. As far as ECCC is concerned, Cook has been the epitomy of a nonentity for them.

A cheap shot, to suggest Cook is scared of 2nd division bowlers. He showed what he can do at this level at the start of the season. Why do consider them to be "freaks"?  Can't you accept them at face value?

I agree that he benefited from some umpiring decisions but he also suffered from some bad ones...these are part of cricket.

You just have to accept that we will never see much of Cook, although on this occasion I find the decision to rest him nothing short of capricious. As Jason has pointed out, his contract is with the ECB. We may not like it but it is probably the best arrangement for English cricket (whose team are far more likely to win an international competition than their footballing equivalents, where the clubs control everything)

Diatribe you really have got it in for Ally haven't you? It sounds like you have a personal grudge against him; I must admit though I'm not happy with him being unavailable for the remainder of the season when all other England players are!! Not the first time I have found a decision of Moores a bit baffling, I'd love to know his reasoning for this decision!!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 08, 2014, 08:11:19 PM
Not the first time I have found a decision of Moores a bit baffling, I'd love to know his reasoning for this decision!!

That's if it was his decision, Cook hasn't been over keen to turn out for ECCC for many a yr. He's hardly in the Gooch league when it comes to patriotism, is he now, although he does grace the Chelmsford nets with his presence when not back on his farm being urged by his wife to carry on captaining despite no longer being worth his place in the team.

I notice he managed to turn out for his Upminster benefit match, no restrictions there then.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: essexfan548 on September 09, 2014, 02:47:56 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/29127151 so now we know  ;D

I really don't like the animosity on this thread towards Alistair - he's a really nice guy and we don't pay his wages so can't complain if he's not available.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on September 09, 2014, 04:09:14 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/29127151 so now we know  ;D


Do you think he spouts rubbish all the time?

I pity his wife if he does.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on September 09, 2014, 06:58:21 PM
Why do consider them to be "freaks"?  Can't you accept them at face value?




'Freak' was probably inappropriate phraseology, uncharacteristic might be a better word if taken in context with his contributions for ECCC over the past couple of seasons and beyond.

I accept that this is your perception but it is not borne out by the figures. Cook's current first-class career batting average for Essex is 44.97. In the history of the Club, only six players (who have played 20+ matches) have achieved a better career average. Five of these were overseas players (Law, Border, Waugh, Salim Malik & Andy Flower) who were in the peak of their careers, thus inflating their averages. The other was G A Gooch.

To me, that looks like a top-class contribution from Cook.

Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on September 09, 2014, 07:33:50 PM

To me, that looks like a top-class contribution from Cook.

The bulk of that contribution was a long time ago though.

& we are supposedly mounting a promotion push.  ::) 
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on September 09, 2014, 08:38:39 PM
Ally certainly looked in fine form for Essex at the start of this season with 2 excellent centuries, his 181 went a long way to winning the Derby match, in 2013 he averaged nearly 40 in 2 matches, I wish Ally could turn out more for us but I welcome any time he does, for all that is said he is a class act & we should be proud of him.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on September 09, 2014, 09:12:32 PM

To me, that looks like a top-class contribution from Cook.

The bulk of that contribution was a long time ago though.

& we are supposedly mounting a promotion push.  ::)

Ah but that's a different issue. I was challenging Mr Diatribe's contention

"As far as ECCC is concerned, Cook has been the epitomy of a nonentity for them."

while you (like many of us) are bemoaning his non-availability.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 10, 2014, 03:12:08 PM


while you (like many of us) are bemoaning his non-availability.

I'm not bemoaning his non-availability, Ian, if you care to peruse my posting, you will no doubt observe that I stated I would rather see Browne opening the innings than Cook.

I was also referring to Cook's earlier innings this season being uncharacteristic compared to those of the past couple of seasons, whereas you are referring to his overall career. I can't be bothered to research his average for ECCC over over the past 3 seasons, but I doubt whether it would exceed those of Westley and Mickleburg, despite his appearances being spartan to use a euphemism.

I don't personally feel the club are missing much by not having Cook available, I am of the opinion that ECCC would considerably benefit from ditching all their prima donna star players who are over rated, mostly unavailable and perhaps most poignantly, rarely deliver the goods when most needed. As previously stated, I think you will find that after the 2015 Ashes series, Cook's international career will be over and he certainly won't be playing for ECCC, He'll much more likely be storming off to his farm with his pseudo blairalike grin whilst taking his bat, ball and stumps with him.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on September 10, 2014, 03:17:40 PM
...and I thought my one-eyed dislike of public schoolboy was verging on madness! Didn't Cooky sign your autograph book or return your e-mails, or late-night phone calls, or notes written with dubious looking ink, or somefink???  ;)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Perov on September 10, 2014, 05:53:31 PM
Comparison of Cook, Westley and Mickleburgh averages for 2011,2012, 2013 and this season:

                      2011     2012   2013    2014
Cook               45.28    5.0     39.25    77.20
Mickleburgh     26.43   22.61  41.45    25.33
Westley           29.16   34.17  39.20    30.45
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on September 10, 2014, 08:39:59 PM


while you (like many of us) are bemoaning his non-availability.

I'm not bemoaning his non-availability, Ian, if you care to peruse my posting, you will no doubt observe that I stated I would rather see Browne opening the innings than Cook.


Rest easy, I was replying to VP.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 11, 2014, 12:02:32 PM
Comparison of Cook, Westley and Mickleburgh averages for 2011,2012, 2013 and this season:

                      2011     2012   2013    2014
Cook               45.28    5.0     39.25    77.20
Mickleburgh     26.43   22.61  41.45    25.33
Westley           29.16   34.17  39.20    30.45

So the overall averages for the seasons 2011, 2012 and 2013 in respect to Cook, Westley, Mickleburg are Cook 29.84, Westley, 34.17, Mickleburg 30.16.

My point regarding Cook's current unavailability to play for his county, regardless of whether one thinks he should be in the team or not, is that the excuse being offered of him requiring a rest is a palpable lie whereby one would require to be a genius of the highest standing to even begin to believe it.  Think about it, Cook is the only ECB contracted player who is unavailable for the current round of CC matches, why even the bowlers ,whom one would think would require more rest than batsmen, are playing for their respective counties.

Why would Cook need more rest and recuperation than any other player, he fields in the slips and does very little running around in the field, not to mention that he doesn't spend too much time at the crease these days. Players in bygone times used to play first class football as well as cricket and who could forget Gooch rushing to the Oval from the Ceylon test match in 1988 to play in the Surrey game. The only reason Cook is not available to play for ECCC is because he doesn't wish to be. After all, he managed to turn up for his Upminster benefit match, didn't he.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Slogger on September 11, 2014, 06:48:46 PM
Since the Southampton test match Cook has played in two 3 days games and 4 50 over games. He had a long break in the late winter and Spring too.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 11, 2014, 08:13:20 PM
Since the Southampton test match Cook has played in two 3 days games and 4 50 over games. He had a long break in the late winter and Spring too.

Precisely and in those two 3 day games, he spent most of the time languishing on the pavilion balcony with very little occupation of the crease in the 4 x 50 over games. For the ECB and Grayson to state that Cook is fatigued and in need of a rest is an insult to the intelligence of any form of life above that of a 'Sun'reader(I use the word reader in a euphemistic context)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 11, 2014, 08:15:50 PM


Rest easy, I was replying to VP.

So you were, please accept my most profuse apologies. :-[
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Slogger on September 11, 2014, 08:39:11 PM
More to do with fear of the media reaction if he got few runs imo. Boycottand Gooch wouldn be playing as they would want runs
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 11, 2014, 08:57:43 PM
More to do with fear of the media reaction if he got few runs imo. Boycottand Gooch wouldn be playing as they would want runs




Maybe he didn't want his batting deterioration exposed to diluted 2nd. div. bowling attacks, thereby ensuring his continued stay in the England side until at least the end of the 2015 Ashes series when his career will undoubtably end, particularly with the deployment of the Review System.


Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IanS on September 11, 2014, 10:48:40 PM
Comparison of Cook, Westley and Mickleburgh averages for 2011,2012, 2013 and this season:

                      2011     2012   2013    2014
Cook               45.28    5.0     39.25    77.20
Mickleburgh     26.43   22.61  41.45    25.33
Westley           29.16   34.17  39.20    30.45

So the overall averages for the seasons 2011, 2012 and 2013 in respect to Cook, Westley, Mickleburg are Cook 29.84, Westley, 34.17, Mickleburg 30.16.


No, no no! Let's have some mathematical  rigour in these arguments, please!

Cook's average for 1st class matches for Essex 2011-2013 is 38.38. Add in this season - you would only leave it out because it spoils your argument - and it rises to 46.11. Simply dividing the three year's averages in Perov's stats by three ignores the varying no of innings. The figure of 29.84 is meaningless!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 12, 2014, 10:21:57 AM
Comparison of Cook, Westley and Mickleburgh averages for 2011,2012, 2013 and this season:

                      2011     2012   2013    2014
Cook               45.28    5.0     39.25    77.20
Mickleburgh     26.43   22.61  41.45    25.33
Westley           29.16   34.17  39.20    30.45

So the overall averages for the seasons 2011, 2012 and 2013 in respect to Cook, Westley, Mickleburg are Cook 29.84, Westley, 34.17, Mickleburg 30.16.


No, no no! Let's have some mathematical  rigour in these arguments, please!

Cook's average for 1st class matches for Essex 2011-2013 is 38.38. Add in this season - you would only leave it out because it spoils your argument - and it rises to 46.11. Simply dividing the three year's averages in Perov's stats by three ignores the varying no of innings. The figure of 29.84 is meaningless!

I left out the 2014 season, because my argument was always prior to the current season. Hence my stating his couple of inninings earlier in the season were uncharacteristic when taken in context with the previous couple and beyond.

Admittedly I don't possess the mathematical genius of Albert Einstein, but according to my abacus,  45.28 + 5 + 39.25 = 89.23 and when divided by 3 culminates in 29.84. This is based on Perov's figures, you may be using another magic formula, in which case, I couldn't possibly comment. ;)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on September 12, 2014, 12:23:53 PM
...
Admittedly I don't possess the mathematical genius of Albert Einstein, but according to my abacus,  45.28 + 5 + 39.25 = 89.23 and when divided by 3 culminates in 29.84. This is based on Perov's figures, you may be using another magic formula, in which case, I couldn't possibly comment. ;)

I'm no mathematician, but even with my Grade 6 at O Level from 40 years ago it seems obvious that it's the number of innings played that needs to be taken into account to work out the correct average. As IanS has already pointed out. So Diatribe's is an entirely spurious figure.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: essexfan548 on September 12, 2014, 12:36:46 PM
IanS and firehazard are correct - you need to divide the total number of runs by the number of completed innings.

I have a degree in maths and I am a qualified scorer.  :D
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 12, 2014, 02:56:08 PM
IanS and firehazard are correct - you need to divide the total number of runs by the number of completed innings.

I have a degree in maths and I am a qualified scorer.  :D

Absolutely, but as previously stated, I was merely  basing my calculations on the total figures provided by Perov. I didn't even attempt to take into account his amount of innings when calculating the actual average. Why would I, after all, it didn't benefit my argument to do so. ;D
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on September 12, 2014, 03:27:13 PM
... I didn't even attempt to take into account his amount of innings when calculating the actual average. Why would I, after all, it didn't benefit my argument to do so.

You should be working for the DWP.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: nat on September 12, 2014, 03:32:29 PM
... I didn't even attempt to take into account his amount of innings when calculating the actual average. Why would I, after all, it didn't benefit my argument to do so.

You should be working for the DWP.

He should be working.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 20, 2014, 06:41:36 PM
, I wish Ally could turn out more for us but I welcome any time he does, for all that is said he is a class act & we should be proud of him.

No disrespect, Ilford, but that's the most ridiculous assertion I've heard since Blair informed us that we were in imminent danger of being attacked by Saddam's weapons of non existence. I don't know how he was going to launch them, perhaps from one of those agricultural trucks converted to accommodate Mexican war Gatling gums..

Why its almost akin to stating we should be proud of the British arms industry when we can't even legally fire, much less own a 22 calibre target pistol.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on September 20, 2014, 07:32:16 PM
... Gatling gums..

The sponsorship by Wrigley's was particularly threatening.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: squarelegumpire on September 20, 2014, 07:35:47 PM
, I wish Ally could turn out more for us but I welcome any time he does, for all that is said he is a class act & we should be proud of him.

No disrespect, Ilford, but that's the most ridiculous assertion I've heard since Blair informed us that we were in imminent danger of being attacked by Saddam's weapons of non existence. I don't know how he was going to launch them, perhaps from one of those agricultural trucks converted to accommodate Mexican war Gatling gums..

Why its almost akin to stating we should be proud of the British arms industry when we can't even legally fire, much less own a 22 calibre target pistol.

Totally irrational, Mr D. Cook is a credit to the club and County which encouraged and developed him.

Although I agree with you about our former PM"s assertions. And I'm reliably informed  that British are among the best that Middle Eastern states can buy, even though I'm equally reliably informed that the whisky (etc) that comes with them is very acceptable.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 20, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
. And I'm reliably informed  that British are among the best that Middle Eastern states can buy,

But it doesn't do the British people much good if they are banned from owning them, Square, any more than it does ECCC any good to have a player on their books who either doesn't want to play for them or is banned from doing so.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 20, 2014, 10:26:20 PM
... Gatling gums..

The sponsorship by Wrigley's was particularly threatening.

That's a tad harsh on my typographical error, Mr. Fire.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on September 21, 2014, 09:59:31 AM
Now now, we've got to be more inclusive on this BB.

it was a simple joke that albeit wasn't very funny, but I'm sure the original comment was respected, as was the poster as well. And I think we've learnt a lot from this situation that we can carry forward, erm, going forward I meant.

I now have the urge to say something very nasty about Grayson, but I have resisted. Resist. Resist resist. :-X :-X
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on September 21, 2014, 11:09:26 AM
...
it was a simple joke that albeit wasn't very funny...

Apologies. There were far funnier and more appropriate possible jokes that could have been made, if more than a moment's thought had been given to it.

Always think before you post, is the lesson. And well done for resisting.  8)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on September 21, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
...
it was a simple joke that albeit wasn't very funny...

Apologies. There were far funnier and more appropriate possible jokes that could have been made, if more than a moment's thought had been given to it.

Always think before you post, is the lesson. And well done for resisting.  8)

Apologies accepted. I'm going to make meself a tin foil hat. May I suggest that you do the same. Apparently they work.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on September 22, 2014, 08:38:41 AM
... I'm going to make meself a tin foil hat. May I suggest that you do the same. Apparently they work.

But who says that they work? Perhaps they're just trying to lull you into a false sense of security. It's the kind of thing they do.  ;)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on September 22, 2014, 09:35:45 AM
... I'm going to make meself a tin foil hat. May I suggest that you do the same. Apparently they work.

But who says that they work? Perhaps they're just trying to lull you into a false sense of security. It's the kind of thing they do.  ;)
Do they?  :o
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Diatribe on September 22, 2014, 11:54:45 AM
MICHAEL VAUGHN SWAPS ZANY SYRUP FOR CONSPIRATORIAL HEADWEAR

(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk141/Indigoia/tin15.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/Indigoia/media/tin15.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on December 04, 2014, 06:43:57 PM
I notice that Ally has learnt 1 thing from Fossie in that England have again been penalised for a slow over rate - 12 per hour in Sri Lanka yesterday which is deplorable, rather worryingly if Ally gets a 1 match suspension then Morgan could get the Captaincy & his form is atrocious but then again he is never dropped (unlike Ravi).
Nice to see Pietersen sitting on the fence re the Captaincy, perhaps he can impart some pearls of wisdom based on his time as England Captain!!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 05, 2014, 02:27:37 PM
I notice that Ally has learnt 1 thing from Fossie in that England have again been penalised for a slow over rate - 12 per hour in Sri Lanka yesterday which is deplorable, rather worryingly if Ally gets a 1 match suspension then Morgan could get the Captaincy & his form is atrocious but then again he is never dropped (unlike Ravi).
Nice to see Pietersen sitting on the fence re the Captaincy, perhaps he can impart some pearls of wisdom based on his time as England Captain!!

This is the thread that rose from the grave!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on December 06, 2014, 09:39:53 PM
I notice that Ally has learnt 1 thing from Fossie in that England have again been penalised for a slow over rate - 12 per hour in Sri Lanka yesterday which is deplorable, rather worryingly if Ally gets a 1 match suspension then Morgan could get the Captaincy & his form is atrocious but then again he is never dropped (unlike Ravi).
Nice to see Pietersen sitting on the fence re the Captaincy, perhaps he can impart some pearls of wisdom based on his time as England Captain!!

This is the thread that rose from the grave!
This shows what a sad individual I am having time to dredge up this old thread!!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 07, 2014, 08:52:18 AM
Overcoming denial is an important first step to healing...  ;)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: tonk on December 15, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
At last someone(Moores) has come out and said Cook is not a cert to be in charge of the one day side.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 15, 2014, 01:15:24 PM
At last someone(Moores) has come out and said Cook is not a cert to be in charge of the one day side.

At least Cook knows who his friends are...

TBH no one on here rates AC as a skipper or ODI batter. As I've said before, KP's narcissm has forced the ECB into sticking with AC out of principle and he actually undermined any possiblity that he would be resurrected as a player or even as skipper.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Perov on December 15, 2014, 02:19:42 PM
I think Cook should now stand down but the problem is Morgan isn't any better.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 15, 2014, 03:28:42 PM
I think Cook should now stand down but the problem is Morgan isn't any better.

This series Morgan made runs when skipper - coincidence? I think he's tried to get his place back in all forms of the England team but whether he's not good enough or there's a power play from AC I don't know. I do know that it isn't healthy to have skippers picked on whether they can use the correct knife and fork rather than long term form.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: afinetickletoleg on December 15, 2014, 04:34:30 PM
Morgan's recent T20 record (last 18 months - 2 years) is no better than Cooks and Middlesex in the domestic T20 last season under Morgan were woeful so what real justification is there to drop Cook and replace with Morgan?

T20 requires no real tactical genius so why not just pick the best team and select a captain from there? It's got to be better than this old fashioned way of picking the captain and then the team.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Perov on December 15, 2014, 05:26:07 PM
I think Cook should now stand down but the problem is Morgan isn't any better.

This series Morgan made runs when skipper - coincidence? I think he's tried to get his place back in all forms of the England team but whether he's not good enough or there's a power play from AC I don't know. I do know that it isn't healthy to have skippers picked on whether they can use the correct knife and fork rather than long term form.

In one game....which we lost.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on December 15, 2014, 06:50:18 PM
It's got to be better than this old fashioned way of picking the captain and then the team.

You don't seem to have a problem when Essex do it ... 
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on December 15, 2014, 07:46:50 PM
Off at a slight tangent again but is the Selectors policy for T20  for Wicketkeeper anyone but Fossie? I appreciate Billings has potential & looks a fine prospect (impressed me as a batsman when I've seen him) but Fossie is the finished product all round, also worse all rounders than Napes have been selected in the last 4/5 years. A bit of Essex bias? You bet, but both should at least be considered.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Valentines Park on December 16, 2014, 09:42:15 AM
Maybe 5 years ago but Fozzy is on the wane.

Which makes the balls up over his succession even more galling.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 16, 2014, 11:17:33 AM
I think Cook should now stand down but the problem is Morgan isn't any better.

This series Morgan made runs when skipper - coincidence? I think he's tried to get his place back in all forms of the England team but whether he's not good enough or there's a power play from AC I don't know. I do know that it isn't healthy to have skippers picked on whether they can use the correct knife and fork rather than long term form.

In one game....which we lost.

So what? The skipper made runs. Even the most one eyed ECCC supporter wouldn't want AC in the one day team. Personally, I'd have given him the winter at home with his new family and rest him up for when the proper cricket starts.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: afinetickletoleg on December 16, 2014, 12:27:37 PM
It's got to be better than this old fashioned way of picking the captain and then the team.

You don't seem to have a problem when Essex do it ...

Are you starting again?

Anyway, I don't think you'll find any evidence of me on here supporting Foster as captain.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 16, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
'tis the season to be jolly, fa la la la la, la la la la.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 16, 2014, 01:08:51 PM
Off at a slight tangent again but is the Selectors policy for T20  for Wicketkeeper anyone but Fossie? I appreciate Billings has potential & looks a fine prospect (impressed me as a batsman when I've seen him) but Fossie is the finished product all round, also worse all rounders than Napes have been selected in the last 4/5 years. A bit of Essex bias? You bet, but both should at least be considered.

Can't help thinking that Fossie seriously blotted his copybook somewhere along the way, although personal reasons around 2007/9 probably meant he didn't need the extra hassle. Napes was never fit enough to be taken seriously as an England player, although the continued selection of other players in his stead is beyond my logic.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Daren Mootoo on December 19, 2014, 03:59:26 PM
Make Bopara England ODI/T20 captain.
Title: Re: Captain Cook NOT ANYMORE
Post by: frank21 on December 19, 2014, 05:26:12 PM
Re: Captain Cook NOT ANYMORE
Cook sacked morgan installed
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 19, 2014, 08:50:54 PM
An inevitable decision - pity for AC. Not his fault the ECB lumbered him with the captaincy (not his strongest suit) as well as it being in a format that no longer suits his batting style.
Title: Re: Captain Cook NOT ANYMORE
Post by: afinetickletoleg on December 19, 2014, 09:42:44 PM
Cook sacked morgan installed

Total knee jerk reaction to satisfy the media.

As I have said before I have no problem replacing Cook but all they have done is replace him with another captain not worth his place in the team. Pointless.

It will be interesting to see the rest of the squad now.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: afinetickletoleg on December 19, 2014, 09:44:13 PM
Make Bopara England ODI/T20 captain.

That would make more sense than appointing Morgan.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: tonk on December 20, 2014, 07:29:35 AM
He did look a bit uncomfortable in the interview after the Sri Lanka loss and in the long run think it will do him good.They are obviously hoping Morgan will get runs in the big bash.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 20, 2014, 11:48:58 AM
I see KP wants to play under Cap'n Morgan. The image of those undead pirates from that Johnny Depp movie comes to mind...
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Stringbok on December 20, 2014, 02:10:01 PM
Only thing wrong with this decision is the timing - it should have been done a lot earlier.  Cook is not and never has been one of the top ten one day English batsman.  In my view he has only remained in the side because of the ECB's unfathomable desire not to split the test and one day jobs. Hopefully he can go away and get his Test game back to its previous heights.
'
On the plus side should the ECB acquiesce, and I am sure it's their decision and not Cook's, he should be available to help Essex push for promotion in September instead of playing in the ODI series against Australia.  Availability through all of June when the New Zealand ODI takes place, is also a possibility.   Seven matches in all which would have been more but for the late scheduled West Indies series.

A top four of Cook, Browne, Westley and Ryder is not too shabby especially for Div 2.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: IlfordEagle on December 20, 2014, 10:26:21 PM
I hope the break from 1 day cricket with England will do Ally some good, I too hope Essex will benefit as Ally will definitely need time in the middle prior to the Ashes series thus we may see him a bit more than normal, even Moores surely cannot stop Ally playing for us.
I remain unconvinced about Morgan as Ally's successor, he has hardly been outstanding leading Middlesex & his batting form is even worse than Ally's!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on December 23, 2014, 09:04:45 AM
He was at Ally Pally for the darts last night. Acquitted himself reasonably well in beating Jimmy Anderson in a pre-show exhibition game, and then exchanged some banter with Eric Bristow in the commentary box.

http://www1.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/9617770/alastair-cook-looks-to-move-on-after-england-sacking (http://www1.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/9617770/alastair-cook-looks-to-move-on-after-england-sacking)
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 23, 2014, 11:48:52 AM
He was at Ally Pally for the darts last night. Acquitted himself reasonably well in beating Jimmy Anderson in a pre-show exhibition game, and then exchanged some banter with Eric Bristow in the commentary box.

http://www1.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/9617770/alastair-cook-looks-to-move-on-after-england-sacking (http://www1.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/9617770/alastair-cook-looks-to-move-on-after-england-sacking)

I wonder if having a large breasted woman would have put Anderson off? Why did they choose 'give it up' as chefs theme tune?

Any rumours that the England team improve their darts by putting a KP picture on the board are probably true.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Daren Mootoo on December 23, 2014, 12:43:39 PM
Nice to see Cooky score a hundred again! Still think Ravi for ODI/T20 captain, reckon it could still happen if we flounder down under in the spring.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on December 23, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
... Why did they choose 'give it up' as chefs theme tune?

Any rumours that the England team improve their darts by putting a KP picture on the board are probably true.

The choice of walk-on music is usually down to the player, so presumably he's picked it himself for his future career on the oche. Can be a vital part of the dartist's psychological armoury. If I were him I'd've opted for Bat Out Of Hell, but there you go. ;)

Idly chucks dart at photo of his boss.

Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: bwildered on December 23, 2014, 05:12:52 PM
Did they play cricket ?
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on December 23, 2014, 09:25:52 PM
Nice to see Cooky score a hundred again! Still think Ravi for ODI/T20 captain, reckon it could still happen if we flounder down under in the spring.

Daren, I think you've forgotten to mention that it will be Ravi's benefit year in 2015?
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Daren Mootoo on December 24, 2014, 07:19:03 AM
Every little helps!
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Blocky on February 11, 2015, 09:20:35 AM
I notice with some hilarity that Morgan has had yet another total fail this morning.  Fancy replacing the skipper with a bloke who is actually worse than him...Quality work from Moores....
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: sufcessex on February 11, 2015, 10:34:12 AM
I notice with some hilarity that Morgan has had yet another total fail this morning.  Fancy replacing the skipper with a bloke who is actually worse than him...Quality work from Moores....

Agreed i had no issue with them replacing Cook but to replace him with Morgan was not in my opinion the right decision.

sorry but i can't see Ravi ever captaining England, but that doesnt mean he won't.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on February 11, 2015, 10:35:40 AM
I notice with some hilarity that Morgan has had yet another total fail this morning.  Fancy replacing the skipper with a bloke who is actually worse than him...Quality work from Moores....

Are you seriously suggesting that Ally-posh-but-dim would've done any better? Or maybe Ravi (Benefit Year) Bopara? I think we should take our Essex-tinted specs off and realise that there wasn't much of an alternative to Oein McLove in the short term.

We're waiting now for Jo Root to settle into his potentially excellent career before giving him the ODI captaincy then step up to replace AC in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: afinetickletoleg on February 11, 2015, 11:42:48 AM
I notice with some hilarity that Morgan has had yet another total fail this morning.  Fancy replacing the skipper with a bloke who is actually worse than him...Quality work from Moores....

Are you seriously suggesting that Ally-posh-but-dim would've done any better? Or maybe Ravi (Benefit Year) Bopara? I think we should take our Essex-tinted specs off and realise that there wasn't much of an alternative to Oein McLove in the short term.

We're waiting now for Jo Root to settle into his potentially excellent career before giving him the ODI captaincy then step up to replace AC in the not too distant future.

Would he have done better? or Would he have done worse?

I couldn't see the point of giving it to Morgan as there was little chance of any improvement.
As I said at the time, pick the best squad/team and go from there. 
Bell, Bopara, Broad or Anderson could all have captained that team.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: firehazard on February 11, 2015, 12:10:21 PM
I suspect that as far as the World Cup goes, this England team's prospects will be equally dismal no matter who captains them, so it doesn't much matter.

Eoin McLove's form has really gone downhill ever since someone gave him a cake with a jumper in it.
Title: Re: Captain Cook
Post by: Andy on February 11, 2015, 08:19:30 PM
I suspect that as far as the World Cup goes, this England team's prospects will be equally dismal no matter who captains them, so it doesn't much matter.

Eoin McLove's form has really gone downhill ever since someone gave him a cake with a jumper in it.

Ahh. Ever since he was pensioned off the umpires list, we are like that Irish singer - as we have no Willey.