Essex Outfielder : The Unofficial Essex CCC Forum
Cricket => England Test => Topic started by: Oldhasbeen on March 31, 2014, 04:01:52 PM
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After England's wretched performance against the Dutch, can Giles really be given the job?
I know he has had some real issues to deal with - the injury list, for a start- and we were unlucky against the Kiwis, but let's face it, being bowled out for 88 against a non-Test attack ..... what can I say?
Unfortunately, the alternatives aren't very many, or inspiring, but from what's on offer I'd prefer Tom Moody. What's they view of Essex fans?
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
But, considering that so many of the T20 were different from the Test side, which also got thrashed...
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
But, considering that so many of the T20 were different from the Test side, which also got thrashed...
The T20 coaching team is a lot different as well. Maybe English players just lack the skills and mental toughness to compete at international level at the moment.
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
Grayson for England.
Two birds, one stone.
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THERE IS AN UPSIDE
There is a whole netherlands team which essex could cherry pick for useful players which could be kolpaks. Essex via stansted/harwich is the netherlands local county. What do you think (i will start a new thread).
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
Perehaps you could offer an answer to your own question?
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
But, considering that so many of the T20 were different from the Test side, which also got thrashed...
Jonathan Agnews' view is pertinent here: "England were simply dreadful, and it was galling to hear coach Ashley Giles and captain Stuart Broad putting the display down to complacency."
Full article at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/26825193
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
But, considering that so many of the T20 were different from the Test side, which also got thrashed...
The T20 coaching team is a lot different as well. Maybe English players just lack the skills and mental toughness to compete at international level at the moment.
How do you explain the sudden turnaround in 2009, when the loss of skipper and coach saw us win the Ashes back????
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Aggers has also said in the last few days on his BBC column that he thinks the England job isn't attractive these days and I think he's right....I mean who would want to take over this mess?! No one has barely applied so we might as well give it to The King of Spain.
As for this latest fiasco, why on earth don't we select players who actually excel in t20's like Carberry, Kieswetter, Malan, Allenby, Topley, Willey, Briggs?! These guys were all at the top of the t20 averages in 2013. I mean what has Broad done to warrant selection in this format and as captain he hasn't a clue!!!
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as captain he hasn't a clue!!!
Neither did Collingwood & he's one of the coaches now.
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as captain he hasn't a clue!!!
Neither did Collingwood & he's one of the coaches now.
He was the captain the only time we have ever won a world tournament.
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Maybe so but my abiding memory of him was not letting Fozzy stand up to medium papers in 2009.
& not playing Napier entirely.
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Back where we were when Nasser took over-bring back Duncan Fletcher!!
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Told you Giles is wet, wet, wet. If the coach/manager has little effect on the performance of the team then why do we have one?
Didn't have them 30+years ago ...
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Aggers has also said in the last few days on his BBC column that he thinks the England job isn't attractive these days and I think he's right....I mean who would want to take over this mess?! No one has barely applied so we might as well give it to The King of Spain.
As for this latest fiasco, why on earth don't we select players who actually excel in t20's like Carberry, Kieswetter, Malan, Allenby, Topley, Willey, Briggs?! These guys were all at the top of the t20 averages in 2013. I mean what has Broad done to warrant selection in this format and as captain he hasn't a clue!!!
Very true ,the above players are the best we have but something seems to happen when players pull on an England shirt, apart from Rugby Union players seem incapable of performing or more tellingly, playing with real pride it seems.
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Aggers has also said in the last few days on his BBC column that he thinks the England job isn't attractive these days and I think he's right....I mean who would want to take over this mess?! No one has barely applied so we might as well give it to The King of Spain.
As for this latest fiasco, why on earth don't we select players who actually excel in t20's like Carberry, Kieswetter, Malan, Allenby, Topley, Willey, Briggs?! These guys were all at the top of the t20 averages in 2013. I mean what has Broad done to warrant selection in this format and as captain he hasn't a clue!!!
Very true ,the above players are the best we have but something seems to happen when players pull on an England shirt, apart from Rugby Union players seem incapable of performing or more tellingly, playing with real pride it seems.
In RU, the recent change of coaching regime (ahem) seems to have worked wonders for England. Now playing better than they have done for years, and they're an exciting team to watch. The atmosphere at Twickenham during the home 6 Nations games was amazing.
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In RU, the recent change of coaching regime (ahem) seems to have worked wonders for England. Now playing better than they have done for years, and they're an exciting team to watch. The atmosphere at Twickenham during the home 6 Nations games was amazing.
Recent? Lancaster has had 3 six nations as coach.
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Recent? Lancaster has had 3 six nations as coach.
Think of all the failure Larry has managed to cram into that time.
& long before it too.
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In RU, the recent change of coaching regime (ahem) seems to have worked wonders for England. Now playing better than they have done for years, and they're an exciting team to watch. The atmosphere at Twickenham during the home 6 Nations games was amazing.
Recent? Lancaster has had 3 six nations as coach.
Yes, and over that time Lancaster has continued to build a team that is growing in confidence and playing much better rugby than under his predecessors. He's not been afraid to introduce new, young players and give them an extended run in the team. He has widespread support from both players and fans. And the signs of improvement are obvious. There's a real sense of confidence and anticipation about what the team could achieve. This is what a good coach can do, and earn general respect by doing so.
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In RU, the recent change of coaching regime (ahem) seems to have worked wonders for England. Now playing better than they have done for years, and they're an exciting team to watch. The atmosphere at Twickenham during the home 6 Nations games was amazing.
Recent? Lancaster has had 3 six nations as coach.
Yes, and over that time Lancaster has continued to build a team that is growing in confidence and playing much better rugby than under his predecessors. He's not been afraid to introduce new, young players and give them an extended run in the team. He has widespread support from both players and fans. And the signs of improvement are obvious. There's a real sense of confidence and anticipation about what the team could achieve. This is what a good coach can do, and earn general respect by doing so.
Has a good coach ever won anything without having good players?
Mind you having said that has Lancaster won a six nations?
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
Perehaps you could offer an answer to your own question?
Would still be interested in your thoughts on your own question.
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Has a good coach ever won anything without having good players?
Dunno, but there are many examples of a good coach significantly turning around the underperformance of his/her players. And a bad coach doing the opposite.
Mind you having said that has Lancaster won a six nations?
Not yet, but given the dreadful state and appalling morale of the squad he inherited, there's little doubt that he's moving a young and inexperienced team in the right direction, in a comparatively short space of time given the mess they were in before he arrived. He's also realistic about aspirations and expectations. But let's not turn this into a rugby thread please.
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
Perehaps you could offer an answer to your own question?
Would still be interested in your thoughts on your own question.
How many times have I answered this in the past?
The coach obviously has an input in the preparation of the players and the tactics but it is then down to the players to go out and perform. If they do not have the skills/application/mental toughness to put the plans in to practice then it is down to them.
So I would say 20% coach and 80% players.
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Well, apparently its a short list of 4: Giles, Mick Newell, Peter Moores (!!!) and Trevor Bayliss, whose name rang only the vaguest bell.
Giles is still the bookies' favourite, with Moores 2nd in most books.
Who's feeling inspired?
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What about Vaughan?
Chirping from the sidelines he seems to have all the answers and claims to know where things are going wrong.
Still it's an easier life being a pundit than taking a job that puts you in the firing line from former England players.
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What about Vaughan?
Chirping from the sidelines he seems to have all the answers and claims to know where things are going wrong.
Still it's an easier life being a pundit than taking a job that puts you in the firing line from former England players.
This is the guy who left the captaincy in tears, now having a go at Trott for 'conning' him over his withdrawal from the Ashes. Too many talentless ex-players clogging up the media.
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What about Vaughan?
Chirping from the sidelines he seems to have all the answers and claims to know where things are going wrong.
Still it's an easier life being a pundit than taking a job that puts you in the firing line from former England players.
This is the guy who left the captaincy in tears, now having a go at Trott for 'conning' him over his withdrawal from the Ashes. Too many talentless ex-players clogging up the media.
I wouldn't call Vaughan "talentless" (even as a pundit) but his continual know-it-all carping is very tiresome. If he's got all the answers, maybe he should apply for the manager's job. Like the Yanks say, "if you ain't gonna sh*t, get off the pot."
And Botham's even worse, though perhaps that goes without saying.
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So I would say 20% coach and 80% players.
Ordinarily I would agree with that assessment.
But the fact that virtually every Essex player that leaves goes on to pull up trees points the finger firmly at Grayson being a total lemon.
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Well, apparently its a short list of 4: Giles, Mick Newell, Peter Moores (!!!) and Trevor Bayliss, whose name rang only the vaguest bell.
Giles is still the bookies' favourite, with Moores 2nd in most books.
Who's feeling inspired?
Mick Newell without question if he wants it - he is a quiet calm man so A/ that will help us recover and B/ will want to keep out of the media spotlight - his record speaks for itself too...
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What about Vaughan?
Chirping from the sidelines he seems to have all the answers and claims to know where things are going wrong.
Still it's an easier life being a pundit than taking a job that puts you in the firing line from former England players.
This is the guy who left the captaincy in tears, now having a go at Trott for 'conning' him over his withdrawal from the Ashes. Too many talentless ex-players clogging up the media.
Not in the case of Vaughan - one of our best captains ever with a proper Ashes win against an all conquering side...
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My view, as usual, is how much of this defeat is down to the coaching staff and how much is down to the decision making and performance of the players?
Perehaps you could offer an answer to your own question?
Would still be interested in your thoughts on your own question.
How many times have I answered this in the past?
The coach obviously has an input in the preparation of the players and the tactics but it is then down to the players to go out and perform. If they do not have the skills/application/mental toughness to put the plans in to practice then it is down to them.
So I would say 20% coach and 80% players.
I have some sympathy with your views but I feel that a good coach has more influence than you suggest. It takes time for a coach's influence to be felt. Sure, there can be a "bounce" with a new coach but a good coach should be able to bring the very best out of a team, such that they are greater than the sum of their parts. Of course if you have a world beating team, such as the West Indies had under the captaincy of Clive LLoyd (did they have a coach in those days?) then leadership is more straightforward, although success is not guaranteed (vide Botham/Richards/Garner at Somerset).
However if I move to a more contemporary example, the turnaround in the Australian team between last summer and this winter was astonishing. The XI that played in Brisbane included 9 of the 11 players who appeared in the 5th Test at The Oval, and indeed played in most of the 5 Tests in England. While England's abysmal performances with the bat (and to a lesser extent the bowlers) helped, the improvement by a largely unchanged team was colossal. Yes, Johnson was a revelation but one man doesn't make a team. It is pretty obvious that replacing Micky Arthur with Darren Lehmann had a huge impact on the team, somewhat more than 20%, I suggest?
Even the very best coaches go stale. (It's the same with successful politicians who fall into the trap of hubris after a few years). Mike Brearley in yesterday's Times had a very good article, generally applauding Andy Flower's tenure as England coach, but fearing that the team eventually needed a change of style, which AF would not be able to deliver.
Yes, once the players step over the boundary rope they are responsible for executing the team's plans. If they can't (or won't) then the coach must select players who can and will; and as an onlooker, he sees more of the game. Of course, if the coach is to be saddled with the responsibility, then he must have the authority, something that is very opaque within Essex CCC.
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Peter Moores is a very good County coach but may well fall into the same category as Graham Taylor did in football - a fine Club coach but just not suited for England, saying that he was saddled with the problem that was Pietersen & free of that he may do better than before.If England change their thinking then Mike Newell may well be the man, he's done a good job with Notts & doesn't appear to court publicity & quietly gets the job done. Also as a relative outsider (no International experience so far) he may well bring a fresh approach & new ideas to the role.