Essex Outfielder : The Unofficial Essex CCC Forum
Cricket => England Test => Topic started by: Oldhasbeen on January 02, 2018, 12:37:15 PM
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VG article by George Dobell on selections, and some of the pertinent injury / legal consideration
http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21938876/last-chance-james-vince-mark-stoneman-impress
There's a strong case for giving some new blood a chance in NZ. I'm slightly surprised GD hasn't mentioned leaving out Moeen and taking a younger spinner (Jack Leach?) to NZ, or the possibility of giving Anderson and/or Broad a tour off.
Not that NZ will be a pushover, but some oldies may benefit from some time out and we need to find out what some of the young guns are capable of
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Ali is a spent force...in as much as he ever was one. Matt Parkinson looks a good leg spinner and may prove to be better than Crane.
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Certainly, the trend has been to attempt incremental change to the team, hence we've soldiered on with the likes of Ali and Balance, so we probably would do no worse than to send most of the Lions to Kiwiland. Mind you, the only spinners who prosper over there sing folk songs about Liverpool...
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Wood not match fit. No Overton, no Woakes .... reprieve for Moeen :-[ or will it be Ballance at 7 :'( .... both wretched options at the moment IMHO
Starc probably back for Aussies.
Looks like 5 days of misery for us all. A draw would be a great result.
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Wood not match fit. No Overton, no Woakes .... reprieve for Moeen :-[ or will it be Ballance at 7 :'( .... both wretched options at the moment IMHO
Starc probably back for Aussies.
Looks like 5 days of misery for us all. A draw would be a great result.
Make that 3.5 days of misery.
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Wood not match fit. No Overton, no Woakes .... reprieve for Moeen :-[ or will it be Ballance at 7 :'( .... both wretched options at the moment IMHO
Starc probably back for Aussies.
Looks like 5 days of misery for us all. A draw would be a great result.
Make that 3.5 days of misery.
Good joke Andy,
Not sure if correct response is :) or :-[
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Possibly the weakest bowling attack to have represented England in ages. After Anderson and Broad nothing! Pretty sure neither Crane or Curran will feature at home next season. They should be developing with the lions not playing Ashes tests.
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Possibly the weakest bowling attack to have represented England in ages. After Anderson and Broad nothing! Pretty sure neither Crane or Curran will feature at home next season. They should be developing with the lions not playing Ashes tests.
I don't disagree that it's a weak attack but they have to pick someone. If Crane and Curran don't play who does? They obviously think these two are the best options available.
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Fair point JasonP but I am concerned at how we have arrived at the situation that the five going out tomorrow are our best left. Plenty of work ahead for the bowling coach it seems. Mr Silverwood what have you walked into?
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Pity Nats lad isn't out there. He'd do a job.....
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Looks like 5 days of misery for us all. A draw would be a great result.
Make that 3.5 days of misery.
Good joke Andy,
Not sure if correct response is :) or :-[
I wasn't joking. I think we know the correct emoticon, the smiling turd one, but it isn't one of the options above.
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It looks like Eng have thrown away the initiative again today going from 228-3 to 233-5 in 10 crazy minutes with irresponsible shots from Root & Bairstow. Malan as always grafted well & has to have some support tomorrow if we are to get 300 as a minimum & then some. Stoneman looked like he was playing a 1 day match & Vince as always flattered to deceive, I think maybe Malan could move up to 3 soon, if not then Root at 3 & Malan at 4 but Vince isn't the answer (truthfully don't know who is!!), much as I admire Westley when he bats & as a stroke player he wouldn't have fared better as the Aussie pace bowlers would have quickly sussed his weaknesses out.
A big day for us tomorrow by the end of which we'll know if it's win or bust!!
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All to familiar on day two. At least Crane had a decent bowl (hope he can do what Virdi (?) did for Surrey at Chelmsford next day after finishing the day with similar figures ). Hard day in the sun for day three coming up.
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It looks like Eng have thrown away the initiative again today going from 228-3 to 233-5 in 10 crazy minutes with irresponsible shots from Root & Bairstow. Malan as always grafted well & has to have some support tomorrow if we are to get 300 as a minimum & then some. Stoneman looked like he was playing a 1 day match & Vince as always flattered to deceive, I think maybe Malan could move up to 3 soon, if not then Root at 3 & Malan at 4 but Vince isn't the answer (truthfully don't know who is!!), much as I admire Westley when he bats & as a stroke player he wouldn't have fared better as the Aussie pace bowlers would have quickly sussed his weaknesses out.
A big day for us tomorrow by the end of which we'll know if it's win or bust!!
Mostly agree with you bu I think it's fair to say that Stoneman got out to a brute of a ball, whereas Vince waved his wand tamely at a wide'un. the latter is, IMHO, in the last chance saloon and should need at least a good 50 in the 2nd innings to be considered make the NZ squad. Time to give one of the younger guys a crack at number 5.
343 wasn't bad from the overnight score but still well below par for this pitch. Can't see us dismissing the Aussies for less than 450 unless we get some very helpful weather.
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Time to thank Vince for his efforts and dump him.
Being likened to Stan Laurel when fielding, is also not a vote of confidence.
I think Foakes would have battled away, and spent more time at the crease than Vince, so I hope he gets a chance against New Zealand.
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Time to thank Vince for his efforts and dump him.
Being likened to Stan Laurel when fielding, is also not a vote of confidence.
I think Foakes would have battled away, and spent more time at the crease than Vince, so I hope he gets a chance against New Zealand.
Seems like the press agree - Lawrence is mentioned in this article by Bayliss!
http://www.cricket.com.au/news/feature/england-australia-ashes-james-vince-selection-vaughan-clarke-lawrence-highlights-scg/2018-01-04
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Indeed Foakes would have stayed there, if he keeps then Bairstow can play just as a batsman, goodbye to Vince I think, great to watch but never in long enough to appreciate! A good effort from the tail today but 346 is 100/150 short & I cannot believe the Aussies won't get 500 ish with another huge score from Smith. A very tiring day in the heat beckons for Eng on Saturday. Feel a little sorry for Curran & Crane both of whom have great potential & should become regulars in 2/3 years.
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Well, the greywash is more like one of those colour schemes which was all but white with a hint of grey.
Out played in every department, outstanding contribution from the captain who did lead from the front. One of those combined X1 the media usually publish, might just get Cook in the side has the solitary Pommie .
Would Stokes or Westley have made a difference, we will now never know. Aussies must be in the driving seat to retain next year unless the top order can fill some dependable runs . What a valuable contribution Trott use to do at three .
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Bye bye Vince. And Ballance (not deemed good enough to displace Vince despite his failures) and Ball (not even considered for final test despite others' injuries)
Stoneman will probably hang on in there for NZ for lack of convincing alternatives
IMHO Curran & Crane have promise but are not ready for the Test arena. Curran looks more like a one-day player to me.
Some clapped-out oldies need a rest (at least!), & some new blood is sorely needed amongst the experienced players.
Very difficult to pick an NZ squad at the moment, as the fitness / availability of so many seamers is TBC e.g. Stokes,Wood, Woakes, TRJ, Craig Overton. (I assume will Finn & Jamie Overton won't be available
However, for batsmen, keepers & spinners I'd go for:
Root
Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Livingstone
Hameed (yes, this is a punt!)
Bairstow
Foakes
Leach
Rashid
Seamers - really depends on who is fit / available but please leave Broad at home!
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As usual the "experts" who never watch county cricket are suggesting Dan Lawrence for the NZ tour. He is a couple of years away in my opinion. He needs some solid county scores before test selection. Picking him now could set him back. It is not as if New Zealand do not have their own high quality seamers waiting to exploit their conditions.
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As usual the "experts" who never watch county cricket are suggesting Dan Lawrence for the NZ tour. He is a couple of years away in my opinion. He needs some solid county scores before test selection. Picking him now could set him back. It is not as if New Zealand do not have their own high quality seamers waiting to exploit their conditions.
Haven't seen a lot of Dan but inclined to agree. Liam Livingstone looks a better bet at the moment.
It'll be a difficult job for the selectors, so many questions about availability and balancing the need for new blood with the need to stick out a good team, NZ are no mugs! However, it's a much less pressured environment than Aus for a rookie.
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I tend to agree that this is early for Dan. I think the drop in form towards the end of last season was possibly a blessing. For player and club.
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Bye bye Vince. And Ballance (not deemed good enough to displace Vince despite his failures) and Ball (not even considered for final test despite others' injuries)
Stoneman will probably hang on in there for NZ for lack of convincing alternatives
IMHO Curran & Crane have promise but are not ready for the Test arena. Curran looks more like a one-day player to me.
Some clapped-out oldies need a rest (at least!), & some new blood is sorely needed amongst the experienced players.
Very difficult to pick an NZ squad at the moment, as the fitness / availability of so many seamers is TBC e.g. Stokes,Wood, Woakes, TRJ, Craig Overton. (I assume will Finn & Jamie Overton won't be available
However, for batsmen, keepers & spinners I'd go for:
Root
Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Livingstone
Hameed (yes, this is a punt!)
Bairstow
Foakes
Leach
Rashid
Seamers - really depends on who is fit / available but please leave Broad at home!
Id be happy with that but I would stick with Crane over Rashid. As for the bowlers, like you say, depends on injury but I would let Anderson have a rest, Broad would miss out, Ball not good enough. If fit I could see Curran, Wood, TRJ and Woakes all going. I think Overton may have a chance of being fit. I would like to see Garton given a go. He looked nippy when I saw him last season. We have a year and a half till the aussies come over, that is what I would be focusing on.
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England's miserable tour in numbers
England went through a series without taking 20 wickets in a match for the first time since the 2009 tour of the West Indies
The 1,003.2 overs England bowled in the series is the most since the 1994-95 Ashes, when they sent down 1,013.4 overs
The 58 wickets England have taken is their second lowest tally in a five-Test series in Australia, behind 57 in 1958-59
Australia are the first team to go through a five-Test series with only four bowlers taking wickets
This is the first Ashes series since 1994-95 when all five Tests have reached the fifth day.
Completely outplayed, never on top in any respect ( despite the comments ) surprised if they won more than two sessions on the whole tour .
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England's miserable tour in numbers
England went through a series without taking 20 wickets in a match for the first time since the 2009 tour of the West Indies
The 1,003.2 overs England bowled in the series is the most since the 1994-95 Ashes, when they sent down 1,013.4 overs
The 58 wickets England have taken is their second lowest tally in a five-Test series in Australia, behind 57 in 1958-59
Australia are the first team to go through a five-Test series with only four bowlers taking wickets
This is the first Ashes series since 1994-95 when all five Tests have reached the fifth day.
Completely outplayed, never on top in any respect ( despite the comments ) surprised if they won more than two sessions on the whole tour .
You're wrong ... because the England players said so.
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Anderson - "...the tour was not disastrous...".
So what would you call it when you lose two matches by an innings, one match by 10 wickets and another by over 100 runs... in a 5 game series?!
and this comes from the vice-captain!
Get rid of the whole leadership and appoint a captain with sole responsibility for results (Root too young at the mo). Either Darryl Mitchell or Wayne Madsen.
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Foakes to bat 7 Bairstows 6 Malan 3 Wood has to play if fit in New Zealand ,hopefully the Stokes Shambles will be resolved by then and he plays.
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Foakes to bat 7 Bairstows 6 Malan 3 Wood has to play if fit in New Zealand ,hopefully the Stokes Shambles will be resolved by then and he plays.
Wood will never be fit for long...need to move on.
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Having watched Lawrence ever since he made his debut I agree he isn't ready yet, he does need 2 more years, he has done really well so far but needs more big scores & to get 1k FC runs per season, temperament wise he is ready but needs to be more match hardened. A Work in Progress certainly but a very promising WIP.
Curran, Overton & Crane all have potential but a harsh introduction to Test cricket for them all. It makes you realise how valuable a no 3 Trott was, slow & deliberate maybe but Mr Reliable.
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Got to find batsmen that are not too one day orientated and that is becoming increasingly difficult with all these one day competitions around the globe offering the big bucks, if you are a young pro cricketer you have to take a view of where can I make the best living?
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Got to find batsmen that are not too one day orientated and that is becoming increasingly difficult with all these one day competitions around the globe offering the big bucks, if you are a young pro cricketer you have to take a view of where can I make the best living?
Ever since one day cricket became significant in the county game, people have blamed it for ruining batsmens techniques or meaning that bowlers no longer know how to take 20 wickets. Strange how so many overseas stars played seasons for counties, but never had the same problems adjusting.
Back in the 1970s/80s England players had to swap from one day to five day to three day cricket in the same week, so they could be forgiven for struggling, but nowadays there is a tendency to have different formats in 'blocks', giving a few weeks before a test series starts, for example (albeit the quality of the preparation may need improving).
The impressive thing about Steve Smith is he clearly thinks on his feet and prepares well for each match. He may struggle more in damp conditions, but he gets less practice in those conditions.
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Who the hell does Bayliss think he is? Saying that he will leave after the 2019 Ashes is extreme arrogance. We have series before that against Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka that on current form we could well mess up. The much vaunted one day side have not actually won anything either. I would show him the door now and get in someone that actually knows about county cricket and who the best players are.
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I agree with Leeds Exile. We need a coach with in depth knowledge of the county game who can spot potential as well as de facto talent e.g Trescothick who pulled up few trees in county cricket ( neither did Vaughan really for that matter) but Duncan Fletcher saw them consistently and adjudged correctly that they could make the transition to tests. Not playing in the height of Summer - another brilliant decision by the ECB- won't help our test prospects either, militating against pace and spin alike.
Does it really matter though as nobody apparently watches or is interested in test cricket?
It was only watched live in this country last Summer by a quarter of a million people over 7 tests and a similar number were present over the series in OZ. It's on the back pages and sometimes the front of every newspaper and its the only cricket most people anywhere talk about. Who remembers what happened in our last 20;20 international ? Tests are the one yardstick that is used to determine whether people can play the game or not.
The crowds at the SAfrica v India tests looked encouragingly healthy and maybe with the onset of day; night tests things will change back more emphasise the real game and its skills. Of course whatever happens we can trust the ECB to put its eggs in the basket of the new 10;10 game. The history, legacy and beauty of the game is safe in their hands.
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Duncan Fletcher saw them consistently and adjudged correctly that they could make the transition to tests.
Fletch was also a fan of Saj so he was capable of Larry-esque errors of judgement.
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I agree with Leeds Exile. We need a coach with in depth knowledge of the county game who can spot potential as well as de facto talent e.g Trescothick who pulled up few trees in county cricket ( neither did Vaughan really for that matter) but Duncan Fletcher saw them consistently and adjudged correctly that they could make the transition to tests. Not playing in the height of Summer - another brilliant decision by the ECB- won't help our test prospects either, militating against pace and spin alike.
Does it really matter though as nobody apparently watches or is interested in test cricket?
It was only watched live in this country last Summer by a quarter of a million people over 7 tests and a similar number were present over the series in OZ. It's on the back pages and sometimes the front of every newspaper and its the only cricket most people anywhere talk about. Who remembers what happened in our last 20;20 international ? Tests are the one yardstick that is used to determine whether people can play the game or not.
The crowds at the SAfrica v India tests looked encouragingly healthy and maybe with the onset of day; night tests things will change back more emphasise the real game and its skills. Of course whatever happens we can trust the ECB to put its eggs in the basket of the new 10;10 game. The history, legacy and beauty of the game is safe in their hands.
The way things have gone for a fair few years now is that players go from county cricket to academies and England Lions Tours then on to Test Cricket. Players are very rarely picked straight from county cricket to Test Cricket. The two you mentioned, Vaughan and Trescothick, both played a fair bit of A Team cricket before Test Cricket. Malan was picked for Test matches partly on Bayliss recommendation after he did so well in the T20 international against South Africa.
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The trouble is ...
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who is responsible for the England team? Root? Farbrace? Bayliss? Strauss? Shared responsibility is no responsibility.
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Duncan Fletcher saw them consistently and adjudged correctly that they could make the transition to tests.
Fletch was also a fan of Saj so he was capable of Larry-esque errors of judgement.
But history is littered with those who looked the part, but came up short. As we see now, the problem with finding fast bowlers (and Saj was nippy) is they either get dragged down by playing too much county cricket if they're not fast tracked, or if they are promoted quickly they falter. DF is still a far better model for the picking of an overseas national coach, even without the test playing career background.
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Saj never 'looked the part' even at his best.
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DF is still a far better model for the picking of an overseas national coach.
He was so taciturn he could have originated from Yorkshire.
Which I suppose he did in a way seeing as Zimbabwe is really just northern South Africa.
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I tend to agree that this is early for Dan. I think the drop in form towards the end of last season was possibly a blessing. For player and club.
Agree totally. Hope its at least another 2 years before we lose him for most of the Summers :(
Can't afford to have him and Cook (and possibly Westley too) missing for a large part of the season!!
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Saj never 'looked the part' even at his best.
He looked alright to me...until he released the ball. Lanky fans were very frustrated by him.
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Just seen the NZ squad. 8AM and I feel like a stiff drink already.
Same old, same old. For all Farbrace's fine words, where is the forward thinking? Vince, Broad, Moeen....NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!
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Totally agree why take Broad Anderson give them a break because they won't be around to much longer and it would of been a great opportunity to take two younger quick bowlers,as for Vince and Ali they needed to dropped two give to other players ago we never plan for the future perhaps that's why we have gone backwards in the last two years in test cricket.
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A view from Australia:
"England makes pathetic reaction to Ashes humiliation" .... "ONLY England Cricket could find a way to make their Ashes humiliation worse."
Read the whole thing (if you can bear it) at
http://www.news.com.au/sport/cricket/england-makes-pathetic-reaction-to-ashes-humiliation/news-story/eb58749069d1475e121031c75eab3e0a
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A view from Australia:
"England makes pathetic reaction to Ashes humiliation" .... "ONLY England Cricket could find a way to make their Ashes humiliation worse."
Read the whole thing (if you can bear it) at
http://www.news.com.au/sport/cricket/england-makes-pathetic-reaction-to-ashes-humiliation/news-story/eb58749069d1475e121031c75eab3e0a
This is pathetic journalism. So, Otto wouldn't have taken a fit again Wood? Stokes? An improving Livingston? But kept faith with Ballance and Ball? Whoever we'd have taken would make us a laughing stock to this joker. I'd see better writing from Otto the School Bus Driver in The Simpsons...and he's usually stoned!