Essex Outfielder : The Unofficial Essex CCC Forum
Cricket => England Test => Topic started by: Oldhasbeen on July 17, 2017, 11:14:48 AM
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In both test and county cricket, I'm usually for giving players one game too many rather than one game too few. Don't want to go back to the bad old days of the 80s when the England selectors never picked the same team for 2 games running and regularly dumped players after only one test, never to be seen again
BUT .... we've taken it too far now and are getting slaughtered by the Saffers. This will be nine defeats in a year - mostly due to inept batting. I agree with Michael Vaughan, we need five specialist batters, even if that leaves Mo down at 8. And we need to get a better ix at 1-3, starting the innings with three rather stodgy left-handers is plain daft!
At the risk of sounding like we're pressing the panic button, I think it's time for 3 or 4 changes to the tam:
- Jennings just isn't good enough - yet. The Saffers have got him worked out, he needs some time back in the county game.
- Ballance has proved yet again that he's not got it against quality attacks. He's had too many chances already
- I'm a great fan of Mark Wood, but is he 100% fit and can we risk him for 3 tests in a row?
- I don't agree with the abuse hurled at Dawson, he's got promise with both bat & ball (and is already a fine fielder). Again, he needs to go back to the county game for a whil(There was a terrific analysis of his bowling on Sky yesterday, comparing him with Monty at his best - I hope LD saw it.
Replacements:
- Chris Woakes, if fit, is the obvious sub for Wood, and would improve the low-order batting too
- Stuart Robson - RH opening bat, in good form, didn't do badly before, oddly overlooked since
- Tom Westley at three! Play some strokes,Tom!
- Extra batsman (number 5 or 6) to replace Dawson - please, not Ballance!! Not convinced about Dalan (slashes outside off stump too much). Haven't seem Liam livingston. One interesting possibility is having Mark Stoneman down the order, to provide some steel and grit amongst the thumpers
Any thoughts, anyone?
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Thoughts? Your spelling needs attention.
I'd persevere with Dawson. The selectors like his competitiveness as do I. He obviously needs to improve his stats but I think he will.
Jennings, Balance and Wood need to go ... for now. Wood needs to get fully fit if he can. If he can get fit then he will go well in Oz.
Replacements? Not Westley, he is not good enough. Philander will have him on toast. Ordinarily I'd go for Wayne Madsen but his is a saffer in English clothes so that rules him out. Dawad Malan is also a good player also with some saffer-roots. Gubbins could be a solution but is suffering from 2nd season syndrome.
Rory Burns is worth a look except perhaps he is another stodgy left hander.
Roland-Jones is probably next in line for the bowlers and he bats a bit. I also like Sanderson of Northants, a late developer.
The sad thing is that county cricket is full of saffers so the choice is more limited than it was.
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I read that Fatty Patel is rather p*ss*d off that Dawson is in the England team before him.
Patel for Dawson would improve the batting but his bowling doesn't cut it at test match level and won't get any better. As for the fielding, Patel should watch Dawson's catch on Day 1 and weep
Also, I see there;s a "who should bat 3 for England next test" poll on the bbc at the moment. Haseeb Hameed leads with 30%, Mark Stoneman 2nd on 23.
Gary Ballance has 12%. He must have a big family.
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Agree Patel is overall no better than Dawson.
Stoneman is not good enough but suspect he will get the next opening gig.
Balance *does* have a big family. They're called Yorkshire.
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Balance *does* have a big family. They're called Yorkshire.
;) ;) ;) ;)
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Well, the county system is full of Saffers/foreign born players who've come over here with UK Passports (i.e. mostly not come into the game as youngsters) and posh kids too think to get a proper job. Bit like the situation with tennis over the past
30 40 years (certain players excepted) and football is going the same way. Exchange the letters LTA for ECB.
ECCC could be said to have gone the same way with Dixon and Quinn. One or other might be OK, but both?
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Well that was pathetic. I would happily drop at least 6 of that team.
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133 all out.
The most abject batting display by an England team since......?
I struggle to think of a worse one since the West Indies pacemen were murdering us in the 1980s.
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ECCC could be said to have gone the same way with Dixon and Quinn. One or other might be OK, but both?
Agree. Perhaps perversely the counties seem to be acting to the detriment of the England team by recruiting all these foreign players. Quinn and Dixon are no better than many young English bowlers (I'll mention Sam Cook again) who are not getting a chance to establish themselves in CC.
They should enforce the maximum of of 2 non-England qualified players in each team.
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The trouble is that people like Quinn and Dixon with UK passports are England qualified - but highly unlikely to ever play for England. Effectively Beard is being blocked off in our set up - and he potentially could play for England if he develops?
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ECCC could be said to have gone the same way with Dixon and Quinn. One or other might be OK, but both?
Agree. Perhaps perversely the counties seem to be acting to the detriment of the England team by recruiting all these foreign players. Quinn and Dixon are no better than many young English bowlers (I'll mention Sam Cook again) who are not getting a chance to establish themselves in CC.
They should enforce the maximum of of 2 non-England qualified players in each team.
I agree, but I think the key point is the lack of encouragement/opportunities for home-grown players beyond the usual public schools. Ironically, although I'm not too happy about recruiting BOTH Dixon and Quinn at least we can point to a number of locally produced players. Durham have been better than us, particularly with seam bowlers, but there are other counties who could learn from our academy system.
I guess with teaching becoming a mechanical transactional 'profession' and the hiding of the game behind a paywall, what do you expect. Forward thinking?
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Since the Graves/Strauss junta took over the ECB the Test side has gone steadily backwards and for all their emphasis on white ball cricket we have yet again failed to win an international tournament in favourable home conditions.They are systematically undermining the Championship which is the foundation for the Test side, and their aim is surely to extend the franchise T20 model to all domestic cricket. Enjoy county cricket while you can, because with these two at the helm it won't be around much longer.
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I'm not too sure about this business of playing domestic cricket in blocks either. TMS were commenting on the issue that as there is no red ball cricket being played at the moment you can't pick a form player to come into the test team.
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At least Cook showed some resistance (as always) & once again top scored & batted appreciably longer than anybody else. Quite often I've noticed not just in Test cricket but also in CC matches that sides are totally unable to bat out/defend where necessary preferring to go instead for huge aimless heaves, poor strokes which show a lack of technique which is a byproduct of too much 1 day cricket BTW I am a huge fan of both 1 day formats but Test cricket has suffered in England.
Jennings should be persevered with, Hameed needs another season at least in CC, Ballance unfortunately has had enough chances & has come up short - poor technique etc, much as I enjoy watching Tom Westley bat, a very attractive stroke player who has tightened up his defensive play & added consistency to his natural talent he is not quite good enough for England, bowlers like Philander & Morkel will soon find him out.The obvious choice is Mark Stoneman who has a few years of experience in CC1 with a lot of runs & can bat anywhere in the top 5. It is a pity Jonathan Trott cannot play Test cricket these days as he would be ideal at 3 even now. As for the argument for either Buttler or Billings as W/K No way!! Bairstow is far better & much more consistent than both - they are purely & simply good 1 day players not Test players, bowling wise Woakes should return when match fot, Wood needs a few more 4 day games for Durham & then recall him by all means, not sure about Dawson but no obvious replacement. Worrying times indeed.
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I still quite like Duckett. Looking at Englands run of games, SA, WI Home and then Aus away. Those attacks (Pacey/Quick bowlers) would suit him. Jennings and Hameed both have test futures but the problem is neither are really in great form (Jennings had a good one day season but not FC so far). I would stick with Dawson. I still think Ali should be under a bit of pressure. Seems to give his wicket away too easy. Stokes also needs to up his game as at the moment I think he may believe his own hype and he is a bit "undroppable". Not disaster stations by any means but I think we need to take a long hard look at the squad and the make up of the team. A few players need to show they are worth their spot.
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Well, at least Chef isn't copping all the blame - although plenty seem to want to drop him as well. Makes you wonder whether they were too hasty dropping his partner for batting 'too slowly'.
Real shame (personally if not for our team) that Browne and Lawrence didn't kick on enough early season. Makes you wonder whether Bell might be recalled...stranger things have happened.
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At least Cook showed some resistance (as always) & once again top scored & batted appreciably longer than anybody else. Quite often I've noticed not just in Test cricket but also in CC matches that sides are totally unable to bat out/defend where necessary preferring to go instead for huge aimless heaves, poor strokes which show a lack of technique which is a byproduct of too much 1 day cricket BTW I am a huge fan of both 1 day formats but Test cricket has suffered in England.
Jennings should be persevered with, Hameed needs another season at least in CC, Ballance unfortunately has had enough chances & has come up short - poor technique etc, much as I enjoy watching Tom Westley bat, a very attractive stroke player who has tightened up his defensive play & added consistency to his natural talent he is not quite good enough for England, bowlers like Philander & Morkel will soon find him out.The obvious choice is Mark Stoneman who has a few years of experience in CC1 with a lot of runs & can bat anywhere in the top 5. It is a pity Jonathan Trott cannot play Test cricket these days as he would be ideal at 3 even now. As for the argument for either Buttler or Billings as W/K No way!! Bairstow is far better & much more consistent than both - they are purely & simply good 1 day players not Test players, bowling wise Woakes should return when match fot, Wood needs a few more 4 day games for Durham & then recall him by all means, not sure about Dawson but no obvious replacement. Worrying times indeed.
I can barely ever remember England ever picking two spinners at home. You don't need more than one. Pick another batsman and drop Stokes and Ali down one place in the order.
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Having watched Stoneman for a number of seasons, he's rather too 'aerial' for our liking - unless that's been drilled out of him now he's at Surrey. We lost count of the number of times he got to 30-odd and then skied one to the nearest fielder.
Lynda and Steve
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133 all out.
The most abject batting display by an England team since......?
I struggle to think of a worse one since the West Indies pacemen were murdering us in the 1980s.
having stood in the mass of Indian supporters on the last day of the 5th test in Chennai last year, I can assure you that there has been a surrender as bad as this (or nearly) since the mid 70's when holding and Roberts destroyed us.
the only difference was that India batted so long we only needed 2 sessions to capitulate!
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Well, at least Chef isn't copping all the blame - although plenty seem to want to drop him as well. Makes you wonder whether they were too hasty dropping his partner for batting 'too slowly'.
Real shame (personally if not for our team) that Browne and Lawrence didn't kick on enough early season. Makes you wonder whether Bell might be recalled...stranger things have happened.
Agree mate. The idiots whinging about run rate on Day 4 of the Lords test needed to take a long look at what happened when cookie got out on 70+. the rest, who have no batting application at all, got out, because the pitch had big demons, and the ball started swinging.
It did loads on Day 2 at Trent bridge, and same again yesterday. Again, Cook the only man who knows how to leave a swinging ball. too much white ball slashing outside off.
I hope they do drop him. We'll be running round Chelmsford with a big cup if they do....
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How about this - Sri Lanka chased down more than 300 to win a Test match. I know it's against Zimbabwe but....
http://www.espncricinfo.com/sri-lanka-v-zimbabwe-2017/content/story/1111717.html
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Ballance out....who in???
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Ballance out....who in???
Probably Stoneman but possibly Westley or Malan. From the England Lions team almost certainly.
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I'll be shocked if it's anyone other than Westley or Stoneman. If it's Stoneman then they'll probably move Jennings to three. Westley would just be a straight switch.
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Well I hope it's not Westley. Being purely selfish we need him for the championship run in
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I'll be shocked if it's anyone other than Westley or Stoneman. If it's Stoneman then they'll probably move Jennings to three. Westley would just be a straight switch.
Is suspect you are right. I also suspect that the Saffers will be very happy with that selection, I can hear de Plessis telling the team "same bunch of losers, boys!" a mile away.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's a mistake to keep with Jennings as he looks like a walking wicket, getting bowled through the gate by Philander on Sunday said it all. Graham Smith really ripped his technique apart from the commentary box. I think it'd be better for him to go back to the county game and work on his technique, and get some confidence from big scores.
Stoneman deserves a chance but I'd still be concerned about starting the innings with 3 defensively minded left handers with positions 5-7 occupied by blokes who don't know how to graft. Seems to me that left-right combos frequently give bowlers, especially speedsters, adjustment problems.
Dawson has promise but I can't see a case for a second spinner at the Oval. I'd rather strengthen the batting.
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Stoneman is no grafter which is part of his problem.
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Westley in. Bad for us. Well done him. Without sounding dramatic, I can see our tittle charge dropping!!!
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Westley in. Bad for us. Well done him. Without sounding dramatic, I can see our tittle charge dropping!!!
What?! Losing one batsman for one game will de-rail our CC campaign? Yaaawkshire will be without Bairstow, Balance at least.
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Westley in. Bad for us. Well done him. Without sounding dramatic, I can see our tittle charge dropping!!!
We certainly have some, er, "challenges" without Tom & Ally. Time for Wheater, Velani, & Taylor to show what they are made of?
Slightly surprised that Malan got into the squad ahead of Stoneman, but at least the selectors are thinking of the extra batsman. Dawson may have promise, but at the moment he's a luxury we can't afford.
And how fit is Mark Wood?
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Time for Adam Wheater to grow a pair.
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Westley in. Bad for us. Well done him. Without sounding dramatic, I can see our tittle charge dropping!!!
We certainly have some, er, "challenges" without Tom & Ally. Time for Wheater, Velani, & Taylor to show what they are made of?
Slightly surprised that Malan got into the squad ahead of Stoneman, but at least the selectors are thinking of the extra batsman. Dawson may have promise, but at the moment he's a luxury we can't afford.
And how fit is Mark Wood?
If Malan plays it will be in the middle order. Root looks like he wants to bat at 4 so Stoneman wouldn't be a good fit for 5 or below.
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Westley in. Bad for us. Well done him. Without sounding dramatic, I can see our tittle charge dropping!!!
What?! Losing one batsman for one game will de-rail our CC campaign? Yaaawkshire will be without Bairstow, Balance at least.
No, we have already lost our best batsman in Cook. Westley is also up there for us as one of our best. That is a big amount of runs to fill. And I am sure there is a good chance that Westley will be in for more than one game
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Westley in. Bad for us. Well done him. Without sounding dramatic, I can see our tittle charge dropping!!!
What?! Losing one batsman for one game will de-rail our CC campaign? Yaaawkshire will be without Bairstow, Balance at least.
No, we have already lost our best batsman in Cook. Westley is also up there for us as one of our best. That is a big amount of runs to fill. And I am sure there is a good chance that Westley will be in for more than one game
Exactly. He'll miss atleast the next 3 if he stays in the side. An in form Wheater is a good replacement but he's not scoring runs at all atm.
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Westley in. Bad for us. Well done him. Without sounding dramatic, I can see our tittle charge dropping!!!
What?! Losing one batsman for one game will de-rail our CC campaign? Yaaawkshire will be without Bairstow, Balance at least.
No, we have already lost our best batsman in Cook. Westley is also up there for us as one of our best. That is a big amount of runs to fill. And I am sure there is a good chance that Westley will be in for more than one game
Exactly. He'll miss atleast the next 3 if he stays in the side. An in form Wheater is a good replacement but he's not scoring runs at all atm.
he wount be given 1 game even if he gets a pair.
he will be given a run will miss 4 games. absolute disaster for Essex, 2 of the top 3 gone and 2 who were in great form. i think that call up has taken our CC hopes with them. The annoying thing is he shouldnt be called up as there are players who have been consistently better longer term than him in division 1 who should have got a go first, stoneman for starters.
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Rubbish, pieinthesky, absolute rubbish. Yes we want Essex to win the CC, but also yes we want the England team to do well. And a good Test team has to be first priority.
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Rubbish, pieinthesky, absolute rubbish. Yes we want Essex to win the CC, but also yes we want the England team to do well. And a good Test team has to be first priority.
which bit is rubbish?
he wont be given just 1 game?
Its an absoute disaster for Essex?
Or that there are others ahead of him in the queue, ie Stoneman?
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Rubbish, pieinthesky, absolute rubbish. Yes we want Essex to win the CC, but also yes we want the England team to do well. And a good Test team has to be first priority.
which bit is rubbish?
he wont be given just 1 game?
Its an absoute disaster for Essex?
Or that there are others ahead of him in the queue, ie Stoneman?
I can't speak for Mr Square but I imagine his point was that if we want a strong first class county game to provide Test players. we can't really complain when they pick one of ours. Yes I know we all want our strongest possible team in the last few matches, but remember when we won titles despite not having Gooch, Foster, Pringle etc for half our fixtures....
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But i havent said i dont want a strong england (but would still choose Essex success first). I've voiced my opinions on its impact on our CC chances, and how i dont think he was next cab off the rank.
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Rubbish, pieinthesky, absolute rubbish. Yes we want Essex to win the CC, but also yes we want the England team to do well. And a good Test team has to be first priority.
which bit is rubbish?
he wont be given just 1 game?
Its an absoute disaster for Essex?
Or that there are others ahead of him in the queue, ie Stoneman?
I can't speak for Mr Square but I imagine his point was that if we want a strong first class county game to provide Test players. we can't really complain when they pick one of ours. Yes I know we all want our strongest possible team in the last few matches, but remember when we won titles despite not having Gooch, Foster, Pringle etc for half our fixtures....
Thanks Mr P. Quite.
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Surely The Walking Wicket, aka Keaton Jennings, has had his last chance now.
Malan hasn't impressed either. I've a horrible feeling that Ballance will be at 5 vs the Windies.
And score a hatful.
They be totally useless in Australia. :(
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Hales at 5, Stoneman at 2...unless Hameed gets himself sorted....
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Hales at 5, Stoneman at 2...unless Hameed gets himself sorted....
You can't play Cook and Hameed together. They would empty the ground.
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Jennings and Malan to go for me. Stoneman at 2, Ali at 5 and bring in Woakes at 8.
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Hales or Stoneman to open See how Westley goes in the next three tests, Bairstow 5 Stokes 6 and 7 Ali 8 Woakes Depending on the pitch Crane or Roland jones
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Jennings and Malan to go for me. Stoneman at 2, Ali at 5 and bring in Woakes at 8.
No. Ali to remain at no. 8. Jennings, Malan and Westley to go. Replaced by ...
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Clarke (Worcs), SNE and ...finding an opening batsman is a real struggle. I'd go for Lyth.
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Westley has done enough to be given another 2 tests. Malan hasn't looked the part.
Jennings has gotta go, although I'll miss Graham Smith's analyses of his batting. How many euphemisms can the od Saffer captain find to avoid saying that he thinks Jennings is a bit rubbish at Test level?
Robson, Stoneman and Hales all knocking on the door. Hales at 5 might be interesting.
Glad to see Hameed back scoring for Lancs, and Dawson contributing well for Hants but both have to do a lot more to merit selection.
I think it's good news that Kemar Roach is reportedly bowling fast & well. We need him to give our batters a hard time.
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Robson currently batting with a runner & Gubbins injured fielding so that's two unlikely to be fit to be considered next week. Lyth is having an awful season averaging in the 20's including one of the scratchiest centuries I have ever seen.
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So Stoneman it is. Surely.
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So Stoneman it is. Surely.
Maybe. I think they want to get Hameed back in the team after his start in India. I could easily see them leaving Jennings in the team and hoping Hameed backs up the 77* he has at the moment with a few more scores in the rest of the season so they can take him to Australia.
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You can't play Cook and Hameed together. They would empty the ground.
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Very very harsh on Cook - England cannot do without him, he provides the stability the others generally can't.
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Hameed made runs on flat Indian wickets, which is useful but not a good indicator of playing the Aussie quicks. Stoneman's joke about recalling KP seems to have cast him out into the wilderness forever...
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Jennings and Malan to go for me. Stoneman at 2, Ali at 5 and bring in Woakes at 8.
No. Ali to remain at no. 8. Jennings, Malan and Westley to go. Replaced by ...
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Clarke (Worcs), SNE and ...finding an opening batsman is a real struggle. I'd go for Lyth.
You're having a laugh.
No one pads his average like that git & the selectors know it.
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(SNE) - I knew you'd like it. Hate to say it but he's a good player.
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It is curious that Sam Northeast did not play in the match v West Indies just finished. A big century would have promoted his interests. Sean Dickson scored one and was mentioned by Vaughan.
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... Sean Dickson scored one and was mentioned by Vaughan.
Another saffer :(
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If the Cheat is so good then how come he has never been picked before for England, nor is his name mentioned in the papers as a possibility?
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Well at least we've found out that Stoneman and Westley aren't going to be good enough.
Adam Lyth, Rory Burns, SNE next to have a go.
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Lyth has had his chance & the Cheat is the biggest average padder going.
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I think Lyth might have worked it out though. He batted really well against Amir/Jamie/Ravi at Scarborough when the rest collapsed around him 68 of 113 I think. Left well, and defended well. especially against the short stuff. He also played some lovely shots.
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I think Lyth might have worked it out though. He batted really well against Amir/Jamie/Ravi at Scarborough when the rest collapsed around him 68 of 113 I think. Left well, and defended well. especially against the short stuff. He also played some lovely shots.
He has 1 century and 1 half century in 18 CC innings this season, averaging 24. He has no chance of playing for England again in the near future. Especially seeing that he was poor against Australia last time.
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Tom W deserved his chance but he looks like a rabbit in the headlights now.
Vaughan's advocating Malan at 3 and HAles at 5 ..... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Sam Robson back for Middlesex with an other 50, surely he's the obvious next in line?
I note, however, that Liam Livingstone, who I haven't seen, is closing in on a double century after another Hameed failure.
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Vaughan's advocating Malan at 3 and Hales at 5 ..... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Sam Robson back for Middlesex with an other 50, surely he's the obvious next in line?
I note, however, that Liam Livingstone, who I haven't seen, is closing in on a double century after another Hameed failure.
Hales will have to come back - and play his natural game. Hameed is going through a similar (albeit deeper) dip as Lawrence.